Cheap Chinese bandsaw issues etc.

I use a cheap chinese saw, which is very different, but a lot of the fundamentals appear to be kin to yours. No coolant on mine, I wouldn't have the mess even if it were equipped. I flipped speeds a bit when I first got it, but it's been on the low speed almost forever. (At least forever in it's lifetime....) I use a cheap (very cheap) chinese bi-metal saw blade, and it just cuts everything. It's variable pitch, I think it's 10 tooth per inch on the coarse bits, and 14 tooth per inch on the finer bits. I would do the math, but I don't even know how metric nomenclature works for bandsaw blades.... The blade doesn't get but slightly warm, and usually doesn't warm at all. See if yours will do the same.

I do have a blade like this. I tend to use it with thinner material. For example half inch thick plate. I can see myself using it on let's say up to 2in diameter round.

The metric nomenclature is quite simple,but it doesn't use metric... One has to convert it into inches and multiply by blade's TPI to get the number of teeth in the cut.

How fast is your saw cutting BTW? For example a 1in solid round, or a half inch thick plate. Can you see the blade moving down through materiał when looking closely, or is it imperceptible? Today I think I found a good rate for half inch plate where it cut a mm a second. Let's call it a 32nd of an inch a second in imperial units.

The issue with using too high TPI blade is that spaces between teeth(gullets) get filled with chips before they exit the material and teeth can brake off. One can just slow down the downfeed to compensate, but at some point downfeed becomes too low and the blade is just rubbing and not cutting.


Mine is not hydraulic, it's counterbalanced with an adjustable spring. It's not common for me, but I have very few times seen exactly what you say, it just stops cutting, and sits there quietly churning away... But no cutting. I just push a finger on the end of the saw for a little more pressure, and when I see cuttings coming out, it's good again. I'd have a hard time guessing if yours was that issue, or a hydraulic issue. I kind of blame my problem on the blade being too fine, as I hesitate to own one of the "right blade" for every cut. I just use the one, and adjust the spring tension if (and only if) the material or the cut complains about it.

I'm inclined to think the problem is a cutting problem, since mine is capable of it too, and I have zero hydraulics. But the fact that you say "cracking" the hydraulic control corrects your problem makes me think differently. If the down feed has been still for some time, the cylnder should not be holding it any more, in any way, for your adjustment to work... What happens if you set the saw up with nothing in it, not running, and set the downfeed to as slow as you can get it to go? Can you get it to "stick" that way? You could set that up over and over again while you do other things, as if it does hang up, it wouldn't bother it to sit for hours (or days) until you happen to notice it again...

Yes, it does it when I just try it with no material and no motor on. Today I let it downfeed like that fairly slowly, but visibly, and I went for lunch. When I came back it moved an inch then stopped. It is interesting yours does so too, but the mechanism is likely different. I would grease/wd40 your pivot point. That's what I did first on my saw as I thought it must be this initially.

That's how my adjustment works. It's pretty crude. I prop the saw up a bit, for easier visual access, and rest a square on the table, to see the actual blade position. The square is as close as possible to the guide I'm adjusting. I find there's too much tension in the blade to fight with, so I ruled out "tapping" right off. I just stick a large adjustable wrench around anywhere I can, and loosen the bolt, then I move it in a controlled way to where I want it, and tighten the bolt again. It is not an exact science.... But the wrench makes it a lot more controllable than the hammer tap method.

I do make the bolt loosen slightly before tapping :-) I found it to be the only way to move a very small amount. To me tapping it (not necessarily with a hammer, but even with a wrench, those are not strong taps) is easier to control. I guess it doesn't matter which exact method we use as long as it ends up where it needs to be. However, I can't seem to set it properly with a square.

It was said in this thread one should be able to achieve a cut that wanders by no more than 4 thou. My cut, after setting it right by the square moved about 60 thou inwards on my 4in long, half inch thick plate.

Regarding that speed adjustment. I figured out a way to make is "sort of" work for cutting fairly thin material like this half inch plate. I did it by lifting the saw and letting it downfeed with no motor. Setting the speed, waiting for it to stop, crack the valve a tiny but open, wait for it to stop, repeat, until it doesn't seem to stop anymore.

Then lift the saw few inches too high for the actual cut so when it starts going down way too quickly it slows its descent before it gets to cutting. When it gets to touch the material it slowed down sufficiently to make the cut.

This works fine for fairly thin material. I gave some really thick metal to cut (that's why I'm trying to fix that saw). I wonder if this method works with its much slower descent rate.
 
The metric nomenclature is quite simple,but it doesn't use metric... One has to convert it into inches and multiply by blade's TPI to get the number of teeth in the cut.

How fast is your saw cutting BTW? For example a 1in solid round, or a half inch thick plate. Can you see the blade moving down through materiał when looking closely, or is it imperceptible? Today I think I found a good rate for half inch plate where it cut a mm a second. Let's call it a 32nd of an inch a second in imperial units.

On the half inch plate, provided it was being cut on the half inch direction, you can see it move down. I think it might be a little slower than you say, but again, I keep mine on the low belt speed, so my misuse of the blade (and general lazyness about it) makes the blade much more tolerant of uses that are not quite right. I've never timed it, but I'd speculate it's more than half a millimeter in a second, but not near a full one. On a one inch round it cuts quick at the beginning and the end, in the middle I guess you can "percieve" that it's moving, it feels like watching the minute hand move on an analog clock. Or like watching water boil. It takes forever, unless you step away to do something else, in which case it doesn't take much time at all.

The issue with using too high TPI blade is that spaces between teeth(gullets) get filled with chips before they exit the material and teeth can brake off. One can just slow down the downfeed to compensate, but at some point downfeed becomes too low and the blade is just rubbing and not cutting.

You are quite correct. I choose to use that blade for "everything", and if I have no choice but to cut with a longer engaged length, that can sometimes take a while. Technically, that is wrong. In practice, the saw runs it's self, so once the cut is established, I don't need to be there. There's always something else to do... I'm sure it shortens the blade life some, but compared to changing the blade and fooling with the tension and tracking enough to get a different blade to run right in the same guide wheel setup.... I look at it like this- If the chips pack the gullets enough to stop the cut, then it stops cutting, and will drop as soon as the "full" portion of the blade is past. (No, it doesn't work like that....). But so long as I keep the blade speed low, it seems to set it's own feed rate, and the blade life is yet to be determined, but it's still going strong. It's been there long enough and cut enough metal for me that if I needed a new one tomorrow, I would replace, I'd still feel ahead for making the compromise in "correctness".

Yes, it does it when I just try it with no material and no motor on. Today I let it downfeed like that fairly slowly, but visibly, and I went for lunch. When I came back it moved an inch then stopped. It is interesting yours does so too, but the mechanism is likely different. I would grease/wd40 your pivot point. That's what I did first on my saw as I thought it must be this initially.

That's why I tossed out both things I was thinking... I have seen it, which makes it easy to think you have the same issue I've encountered, but at the same time, it didn't quite fit. Something has to be stopping the fluid. I've never had one of those apart, so I won't be a huge help there.

I do make the bolt loosen slightly before tapping :) I found it to be the only way to move a very small amount. To me tapping it (not necessarily with a hammer, but even with a wrench, those are not strong taps) is easier to control. I guess it doesn't matter which exact method we use as long as it ends up where it needs to be. However, I can't seem to set it properly with a square.

Nothing wrong with that if it's working. I don't actually use the square to "square" the blade (except initially, in a very coarse adjustment). I use it for a visual reference to see how much I've changed the blade position. The adjustments are kind of archaic, so I'd say any way it gets done without breaking something, is probably a good way.

It was said in this thread one should be able to achieve a cut that wanders by no more than 4 thou. My cut, after setting it right by the square moved about 60 thou inwards on my 4in long, half inch thick plate.

It's a band saw. I'm sure it's possible to get that result, but in practice it is not a precision tool. If you're looking for that accuracy, you're going to have to take more than that off of the end of the part anyhow to finish it. Besides which, these little light saws are hard pressed to get "identical" results in different shape materials. One place mine falls a little short is like your example, cutting half inch plate. If I'm cutting plate, stood up, so there's not much length engaged, it will wander way more than it will in a more solid section like round or square. That "might" be reduced with a hydraulic feed, but I have no experience.

Regarding that speed adjustment. I figured out a way to make is "sort of" work for cutting fairly thin material like this half inch plate. I did it by lifting the saw and letting it downfeed with no motor. Setting the speed, waiting for it to stop, crack the valve a tiny but open, wait for it to stop, repeat, until it doesn't seem to stop anymore.

Then lift the saw few inches too high for the actual cut so when it starts going down way too quickly it slows its descent before it gets to cutting. When it gets to touch the material it slowed down sufficiently to make the cut.

That sounds reasonable.

This works fine for fairly thin material. I gave some really thick metal to cut (that's why I'm trying to fix that saw). I wonder if this method works with its much slower descent rate.

having never used your saw to know it's character, I think you would set it up just as you would for a narrower cut. Set it to feed about the maximum that each tooth wants and let it go. So long as you have several teeth in, the work will slow the decent, but as it comes out the bottom and the cut gets shorter, the hydraulic fluid would still prevent it from accelerating past where you set it. Maybe. I'm out of my depth, so that's more food for thought than it is advice...
 
Another thing I'm wondering is if its possible to run a wider blade. Next size up is 3/4 inch and suppliers around here do have 3/4tpi blades in that width. My saw takes half inch blades so 7mm (or 0.27inch) of the blade would be in free air... The wheels driving only the topmost half inch. Size wise it would fit, but would it work? I have no idea. I might just buy one (they're quite cheap) to see.

On the half inch plate, provided it was being cut on the half inch direction, you can see it move down. I think it might be a little slower than you say, but again, I keep mine on the low belt speed, so my misuse of the blade (and general lazyness about it) makes the blade much more tolerant of uses that are not quite right. I've never timed it, but I'd speculate it's more than half a millimeter in a second, but not near a full one. On a one inch round it cuts quick at the beginning and the end, in the middle I guess you can "percieve" that it's moving, it feels like watching the minute hand move on an analog clock. Or like watching water boil. It takes forever, unless you step away to do something else, in which case it doesn't take much time at all.

Thanks, this gives me a good idea how your saw cuts :-)

You are quite correct. I choose to use that blade for "everything", and if I have no choice but to cut with a longer engaged length, that can sometimes take a while. Technically, that is wrong. In practice, the saw runs it's self, so once the cut is established, I don't need to be there. There's always something else to do... I'm sure it shortens the blade life some, but compared to changing the blade and fooling with the tension and tracking enough to get a different blade to run right in the same guide wheel setup.... I look at it like this- If the chips pack the gullets enough to stop the cut, then it stops cutting, and will drop as soon as the "full" portion of the blade is past. (No, it doesn't work like that....). But so long as I keep the blade speed low, it seems to set it's own feed rate, and the blade life is yet to be determined, but it's still going strong. It's been there long enough and cut enough metal for me that if I needed a new one tomorrow, I would replace, I'd still feel ahead for making the compromise in "correctness".

If it works for you that's all that matters. So I'm in no way trying to convince you to change, but let me say for benefit of others reading this that I too wasn't too keen on swapping blades too often. Until I started doing it. I guess it depends on the saw, but for me swapping a blade doesn't require re-adjusting rollers etc. All my blades have the same thickness and width. To swap one I just do the following :
- put the saw in vertical position
- undo one thumbscrew to open the back cover
- release blade tension by turning the large knob, the blade usually comes off under it's own tension
- put the new blade into the rollers and while holding it onto the lower wheel, put it around the top wheel with the other hand (this is the only fiddly part of the process)
- put the blade tension as far as it goes with one hand.
- close the cover, run it, check tension again.

So to anyone wondering if it makes sense to swap(and you can get those blades) I say to try it.
 
Before getting carried away trying to modify existing blades or buying oversize blades check a number of supply houses and saw retailers for different pitch blades. Here in the US 1/2" x 6tpi blades are commonly stocked by retailers. Looking online I have found some companies stock 1/2" blade material with as low as 3 tpi. Most of the lower tpi blades are carbon steel rather than bimetal.

 
The issue with the hydraulic cylinder stopping has became even weirder now. I thought about opening the needle valve all the way and using the shutoff valve instead to control the descent. The shutoff valve is a tiny, quarter turn ball valve. It is very rigid and I'm pretty sure there is no play between elements there. So I tried it. I set it very gently for a very slow down feed of about 0.2mm per second (about 10 thou per second) with the motor off. I put a dial indicator on the bandsaw to see how it moves. It worked fine for few inches of travel, then it stopped too. A slightest touch of the valve would make it continue... Now I don't understand that at all, perhaps there is some property of liquid at play here? Why would a valve set to very low flow just stop flowing on its own? I replaced the oil 3 times already. I tried very viscous oil, very non viscous oil (diesel) and I've put oil of similar weight to the original in. I made sure there is no excessive air in there, and if there are some bubbles they would've settled on top of the cylinder by now.

Could someone please, do me a favour, and do a simple check for me? If you have a bandsaw with a hydraulic gravitational downfeed cylinder, and a dial indicator with a magnetic base, can you try setting the downfeed valve on your saw as low as possible, but have the saw moving (this is what the dial indicator is for), then just let it fall let's say 6 inches. I'm very curious if there is something wrong with my hydraulic down feed or am I just expecting unreasonably high precision of movement. Maybe below a certain setting, they all just stop?


Before getting carried away trying to modify existing blades or buying oversize blades check a number of supply houses and saw retailers for different pitch blades. Here in the US 1/2" x 6tpi blades are commonly stocked by retailers. Looking online I have found some companies stock 1/2" blade material with as low as 3 tpi. Most of the lower tpi blades are carbon steel rather than bimetal.

Wrong thread ;-) this one is about the bandsaw itself, the other one is about the blade grinding, but I appreciate the advice anyway. 6tpi is still too many teeth, (36) teeth in a 6in cut. I wrote "i can't even get a 6tpi blade anymore" Not because I need 6 TPI specifically, but because I used to be able to get it. In fact I have a dull, old 6tpi blade on my workshop wall. So far I haven't had luck getting one (as mentioned in the other thread, suppliers claimed yo have it, then rang me to say they don't). Currently, there is a supplier that claims they have 4/6tpi variable teeth. Again, they wanted me to place the order so I did yesterday. This morning I texted them asking about it and they said "it will be posted today". So who knows. Perhaps there exists a bimetal 4/6tpi blade. Based on my past experiences I'll believe it when I hold it in my own hands.

I saw those carbon blades on amazon, unfortunately none of them would ship to Poland (it's quite random, some items they do ship, some they don't). However let's say I could get one, the question then becomes, do I want a carbon blade for cutting tool steel? (that's what I need to cut). If I could get one locally I would definitely give it a try, but shipping one from US doesn't seem to make much sense. Around here it seems no one sells carbon blades anymore.
 
as a funny (in retrospect) situation. My grizzly horizonal bandsaw has always worked perfectly. That is until yesterday when it quit down-feeding during a cut. Having been reading this thread I was sure I had the same, but unknown problem. I restarted the cut, tested it with the hydraulic valve open full. Even put extra weight on the saw. In all cases it would cut fine to a certain depth then no longer down feed.

Well, Once I got past my pre-conceived ideas that this thread put in my head, I realized that the quick clamp handle (I rarely use the quick clamp) was in a vertical position and the saw would run into the quick clamp handle preventing further down-feed. It took me 20 min to figure out what was going on. I am sure if I had not read this thread I would have seen the problem in 30 seconds. o_O
 
as a funny (in retrospect) situation. My grizzly horizonal bandsaw has always worked perfectly. That is until yesterday when it quit down-feeding during a cut. Having been reading this thread I was sure I had the same, but unknown problem. I restarted the cut, tested it with the hydraulic valve open full. Even put extra weight on the saw. In all cases it would cut fine to a certain depth then no longer down feed.

Well, Once I got past my pre-conceived ideas that this thread put in my head, I realized that the quick clamp handle (I rarely use the quick clamp) was in a vertical position and the saw would run into the quick clamp handle preventing further down-feed. It took me 20 min to figure out what was going on. I am sure if I had not read this thread I would have seen the problem in 30 seconds. o_O

:)

My issue only happens at really slow downfeed settings. Under half a mm(20 thou) a second.

Also I tried to search any information if this is a known property of liquids. If there is some sort of "stickiness" in a liquid that at low flows and low pressures can just stop the flow in time. I found nothing, but I did find that in scientific instruments, where they need continuous low flows they use pinch valves, not ball valves. On one forum there was even a post how these pinch valves are very easy to make. One just needs a thin copper tube (under half a mm/20 thou ID or less) and a brass wedge driven by a screw that compresses it. Allegedly worked copper is springy enough to return when it is "u pinched". One day perhaps I'll think about making a valve like this.

Another, perhaps easier solution would be to have more flow in that cylinder at the same downfeed rate. This could be done by putting in a bigger diameter cylinder. However, that would lower the pressure and I don't know if lower pressure is going to cause the same effect at higher flow making a bigger cylinder work exactly the same...

Edit: I decided to try and do some back of the napkin calculations to find out what kind of pressure, flow, orifice size etc are we dealing with and although my numbers are certainly wrong, they are not an order of magnitude wrong so they give us a general idea what might be happening in that valve.

I assumed the weight acting on the cylinder of 100kg (there is a lever arm acting, the saw head is about 40kg), internal diameter of the piston 18mm, downfeed speed of a quarter mm a second. This results in 560psi (38.5bar) pressure and 13 cubic mm per second of flow. The orifice size for this flow at this pressure would be 0.01mm or slightly under half a thou. As the actual orifice is about 2mm in diameter the needle has to be about 300nm away from the walls to equate the area... This is an insanely small distance. 0.3micron or in inches 12 millionths. I was considering using a different liquid as density matters in those calculations and petrol is less dense than oil, but it wouldn't help much. Putting in a cylinder with double the diameter would help a lot, because it would lower the pressure and increase the flow at the same time...

With the system as is? I think 300nm is not a lot of space. Perhaps there are particles in the oil that clog it (a covid virus is 50 to 120nm). Or some other effect stops the flow. One thing is for sure. It doesn't appear the bandsaw is faulty. It simply wasn't designed for such slow downfeed rates. :(
 
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Maybe a coolant mist setup would work for you. The down feed on larger industrial machines use a spring and weight setup in place of the hydraulic cylinder maybe make something like that.
 
I'm thinking that over time someone may have modified the original valve mechanism controlling the flow on your down feed dampener cylinder. If you look closely at the picture of the cylinder in the manual I posted earlier, you'll see that on page 29 there is a picture of the cylinder and the control valves. It has a needle valve at the top port connected to a ball valve just below it. Do you have both the needle valve and the ball valve? It sounds like you only have the ball valve. The needle valve is supposed to be used to control the flow. Once the flow is set the ball valve below it is used to stop and start the down feed. The ball valve is intended to be either fully opened or fully closed.

While a pinch valve may provide somewhat better control, I doubt it was used on this machine. A needle valve is relatively inexpensive and rugged enough to be the standard for this application. If you look at the pictures of my Startrite saw, you'll seek a black plastic knob on the front of the machine near the top center. That is the knob that opens and closes the needle valve which in turn controls the flow of the oil through the down feed cylinder. On the Startrite saw there is no second ball valve inline to stop and start the flow. The needle valve itself is opened and closed to set the flow rate and start and stop the flow.
 
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Maybe a coolant mist setup would work for you. The down feed on larger industrial machines use a spring and weight setup in place of the hydraulic cylinder maybe make something like that.
Regarding coolant I made a sort of a sheet metal pan that goes between the saw and the stand. I'm also making a flood coolant system, but it is supposed to be portable so I can move it between machines. I don't use the bandsaw that frequently so having a full tank of coolant there at all times would not work. I'm also considering using that pan with just a spray bottle (if the flood coolant proves too impractical).

I have a mist system on my surface grinder, but I found I almost always set it to minimal air so it basically just squirts coolant. I'm not a fan of breathing that mist (perhaps it is fine if edible oils are used), but I do like the fact it uses very little coolant. I might try it someday.

Regarding the valve issue, I found a sort of confirmation of my suspicion it is a property of liquid that causes this. This is a quote from an article written by Lenox Lasers about small flows through an orifice:

"On small orifices, surface tension can interfere with or stop the flow of liquids.
Surface tension measurements for liquids are available in many books. However, no definitive information is available that determines at what pressures, hole diameters, and surface tensions flow stops."

This is not very helpful, but at least it confirms I haven't gone insane :)

Then, if it's the surface tension that causes it... I wonder what is the lowest surface tension liquid I can find to put in that cylinder? A gas (air) comes to mind to. It has disadvantages however(it's compressability for one).

As for springs and counterweights, it is actually a very good idea, not instead of the hydraulic cylinder, but in addition. If I could lower the weight acting on the cylinder by adding a counterweight, or a spring this would lower the pressure significantly meaning a much larger orifice can be used for the same flow. Having both a spring/counterweights and the hydraulic cylinder seems like a winning combination.

Lately I've been looking at pictures of various similar saws to determine how I could add a spring to my saw. Unfortunately all saws with springs I found are of the swinging vice type(for angle cuts) . My saw is stationary vice, swinging head type. I'm yet to find an example of such saw with a spring.
 
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