Wish they didn't close down the community college machining program

I am also one that wishes that some training was available for adults. Our local trade school no longer offers machining classes. In fact, I'm not sure that they offer any evening classes at this point. Its a shame especially since the adults are the ones paying for the cost of these training facilities as well as their salaries.


There are some courses offered at one of the local colleges, but the cost is more that I can justify and a large percentage of the training is in the classroom not the shop. I am more interested in the hands on.


I do have a well equipped hobby shop and I have gotten a lot of information off the net from people like Mr. Pete and Keith Freener, but it would be nice to be able to ask a question and be able to move forward without loss of time.
 
I was surprised when I got a flyer in the mail from our local "Community College" and I looked through it for welding courses. (It's been a looong time since I've been in a welding class and I'd like to learn more about the MIG, TIG, etc. You know, the stuff with that new fangled "electricity" I've heard so much about. ;)). Nothing, zip, nada! On the other hand there were several different classes dealing with working on your own bicycle. Anyone need a CLASS on how to change your own pedals? How about one on adjusting your brakes?

I'm afraid if things keep going in this direction they will need to give lessons on how to use a door knob! Oh, never mind, they won't need door knobs. They'll just sit, drooling, in front of their computer screens until something brings them food.

Sad, very sad.

-Ron
 
I know that some of us have a hard time imagining a person (particularly of the male gender) that has no idea how to replace a door knob. My youngest sister married a guy like that. If they buy something that has to be assembled, she historically has done it. He has had NO CLUE whatsoever, BUT, I can honestly say that it is not entirely his fault. His parents split when he was quite young, so he was raised by him mom, who had no mechanical background at all, thus he did not get any exposure to the world of mechanics. He is also twelve years younger than I, placing him squarely in the middle of the "Atari generation", the first video game generation of sorts.

Since marrying my sister he has been learning many things and has "discovered" the world of mechanics. My dad, brother, and myself all help them out with various projects and he is an eager student. He is now able to remove the blades from his lawn tractor, then sharpen and balance them before reinstalling them. He can change a door knob. He even changes the motor oil in their two cars and wants to learn how to replace disc brake pads. He has seen my lathe and mill and asked questions about them and would like to get to try them out and learn something about them. Soooooo..... once my new shop is done and everything is moved in and set up I will have a number of students here: My brother-in-law, my oldest son, and my granddaughter! I guess I better get going and set up a curriculum for them to follow!

It is sad that most of the local schools, both high school and college level, no longer offer much in the line of metal working or welding classes. Wood shop is still offered at the high school level, but it is offered as a "hobby elective" for those that want to learn wood working as a hobby, much like we do with metal. I guess that woodworking is much more common as a hobby than metalworking.
 
I guess I can't complain about my own opportunities in High School, at least. There was a Vocational Education program that was open to the Juniors and Seniors. It was a 2 year, 3 hours per day course. I don't recall any formal coordination with local industry, but off the record, there were key individuals at a couple of local companies of fair size did take an interest. Even to the point of part of the senior class building some tooling for their large shop. I well remember the self-centering hydraulic steady rest we built for one of the lathes at those companies. On the fabrication side, we built a tandem axle low-boy that would haul a small dozer for a commercial construction firm. Our instructor was more a fabricator than a machinist, and naturally, there were the goof-offs in the class that really wanted an easy 3 hours per day. The instructor humored them, and allowed those of us who wanted to learn to do so. He answered our questions, and even though we didn't really follow a structured curriculum (kind of wish we had), some of us did gravitate to either the machines or the fabrication. We learned at our own pace doing projects of our own choosing, for the most part. None of that "File this ball into a perfect cube!" type of instruction. Way more casual than that. But he helped us when we wanted/needed it. We were safe. I even got my picture in the yearbook on a turret lathe, but it was staged, of course.....they needed the picture. He helped a few of us get jobs after graduation. This was in the mid 70's, and pressure to go to college was definitely there, but in this area, there is sufficient industry to influence even the counselors at school to understand the need for blue collar.

I was an honors student, and my counselor was baffled by my decision, but I always thought if making a living with my hands was so bad, then my entire family history was something to be ashamed of. I'm not. Lots of people think I have a degree when I am working around or talking with them, but that's just the result of my insatiable thirst for knowledge of nearly all types. I am largely self educated. I do have some college hours, but nothing to speak of. I honestly believe I learned more in the first 4 years out of High School than I would have in college. Perhaps that perceived deficit would have been long erased, but I'll never know, and I don't care. I am content with the decision I made.

I sadly report though, my old school has long abandoned all of the trades as far as I know. I went to the website to see, and nothing could be found. In Kilgore, there is (or at least was) a JC with a fair technical program, being centered in the oil-patch, and in Longview, we have LeTourneau University, which I understand works with LeTourneau Industries, a heavy industry that requires many willing hands as well as minds.
 
Re the fellow with no training as a youth. I have a friend my age (58) who grew up in an apartment with parents that had no interest in fixing things. His grandmother has a house near me and needed a new front door. My friend was glad of the help picking up a new door as he had no car but was confident he knew how to hang it. He was dismayed when he found a new door did not come with the hinges already attached. Apparently a common "upgrade" during his youth was to remove some of the doors (by pulling the hinge pins) and storing them. Replacing them meant little more than finding the hinge pins. He was even more surprised when the door we bought didn't fit perfectly and required some application of a plane..... Even if I intended to have all work done I would be a little nervous trying to evaluate estimates with that little background.

Taking the other side of the argument, I am equally dismayed at the degree to which you can't get even the simplest job without "taking the course". I am convinced it is a scam between the government and the private training providers. Government gets the credit for "creating opportunity" and the training providers make money. Want to work in an office? Got the course on how to turn your computer on? Flagman? 2 day course please. Janitor? Better have the course on how to make sure you don't mix bleach with ammonia. On and on.

Brian
 
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savarin said:
I was a trade teacher (professional cookery not metal work related) so heres my take on the subject.
When I first started we had what were called adult education courses as well as the conventional trade and business related subjects , some were towards certificates/diplomas etc but the majority were interest classes in all subjects in all trades except hair dressing where they refused anyone unless they were apprenticed to a shop.
All these classes were very reasonably priced so virtually anyone could afford to take them often just for interest.
Every classroom inmy college was full from 8am till 10 pm 5 days a week (virtually no weekend classes except by special demand)
Then out of the blue came two new ideas, The idea that evening adult/community education was not our "Core business" so they stopped every community based evening class and at the same time the concept of "User Pays" or "economic rationalism" entered into the equation which simultaneously out priced any type of non certificate course and also did the same for the remaining sanctioned courses to the point where the majority of students couldnt afford them or had to be a recipient of some kind of government grant to be able to attend (long time unemployed etc).
Colleges were pushed and pushed to become a business and make a profit, management/directors were placed on 3 year performance contracts and so wouldnt rock the boat in fear of not having their contracts renewed etc etc.
My classes went from having to interview every student to pick what we thought would be the best to accepting every tom dick and harry and then some just to fill the spaces and even then not enough students. Classes had to reach a minimum of 12 students else they were cancelled.
Allied to this was a drastic slashing of the nominated hours required to teach a topic often by more than 50% but charging the new inflated fees at the original nominated hours required. This was criminal so they removed the "nominated hours" statement from all the syllabus documents.
The effect of these measures now shows up as empty classrooms, shrinking resources, disaffected teaching staff, redundancies at all levels, cheap beginning (not qualified) teachers on part time contracts doing this whilst waiting for a "real" job.
In my not so humble opinion a complete breakdown of the education system.
The only classes for tradies now are for those who are already in an apprenticeship and these have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.
And dont get me started on "Work place health and safety" can you believe electricians training on 12 volts because 240 is too dangerous?
I was castigated for giving up my spare time to help students who were having trouble passing so told the director where to put the job and took early retirement. She probably received a bonus for downsizing my old department.

I have to agree that some teachers were worse than useless but in truth the majority were very good and concerned for their students, unfortunately they were the first to say enough is enough and quit.

I could go on and on but
<End of rant>
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I agree with your points Savarin,
I changed careers in 2008 from the furniture industry to Engineering as a mechanical tech. I decided to upskill at TAFE (Technical and Further Education) college.
I am currently doing a certificate course in Engineering in my spare time in the evenings and have watched the decline since 2009 till now.
My original college liquidated most of their manual machine shop classroom and has just left the CNC dept running.
We have just gone through funding cuts last year which savaged the teaching staff at the new college I have joined after moving house
I am persevering though but it does make it frustrating doing the different course modules with reduced time blocks, less time allotted less learning.
I was reading an article in an Australian manufacturing magazine by a US engineering business owner who was discussing a manufacturing shift back to the USA using examples such as Caterpillar and the problem he described is that the professional machinists are mostly older in their 40s & 50s and the training facilities are not what they used to be with a low number of well trained new entrants into the industry.
On the positive side I really enjoyed being taught by well qualified teachers much my own age and older who had terrific skills and knowledge to pass on so I guess I am lucky.
cheers
Bill.
 
Here in Kankakee Illinois, with an unemployment rate of 13.5% our local community college is in the process of upgrading our program including doubling the size of the machine shop and buying a number of new lathes, mills and surface grinders. They initiated a millwright program last semester also.
I don't know where all the students are coming from but even at $500 a class, 4 classes total in the program, the classes are always full (12 to a class). Each class is 4 credit hours. The actual class time per semester is 16 night at 5 hours per night.
 
I've been teaching high school kids precision machining for the last 21 years. I worked as a tool and die maker, engineer, and supervisor in skilled trades for 24 years before that. I'm in central Virginia and in an industry rich environment. Most of my kids have jobs waiting for them when they graduate. None of them are any where close to being a machinist. But they are able to be good employees and come to work everyday. They know how to measure, read a blueprint, set up a mill and lathe and machine to +/- .005". in other words they are ready to begin a 4 year apprenticeship to become a machinist. Industry has always trained machinists and tool and die makers etc.
When American industry started shipping everything offshore they quit training people. Now we've lost at least a generation and a half of skilled tradesmen. It will not be fixed easily. Trade schools have never turned out journeyman machinists. The 4 year apprenticeship is 7000 hours of on the job training with some night classes thrown in for theory studies, usually shop math, print reading, metallurgy, safety, intro to CNC programming, and basic communication skills.
Fortunately in my neck of the woods industry understands that. The community colleges do a decent job of training but some make some wild claims about training that they can't produce. That is the main reason some are dropping the programs. They simply can't deliver what they claim. There are several community colleges in Virginia that partner with industry and listen to what industry needs. They are quite successful and have realistic programs with good results. Some of the companies in Virginia that help us include Northrup Grumman, Hershey chocolate, Nibco, Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry dock, Plygem, Pactive, and dozens of others. They hire our students, donate materials and machinery, donate time for there employees to come here and do presentations, and allow us to tour their factories.
As I type this I'm proctoring a self study class for adults. There are 15 apprentices with doing self study courses for their programs. I'm happy to say that 11 of them have been through my high school program. I guess I'm doing a little bragging. It makes me feel better about doing a 14 hour day once a week.
Ok I'm done for now. Thanks for listening
 
papermaker said:
They eliminated the machinist program at our local community college also. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The news said that there is a huge demand for experienced machinist in our state yet there isn't a program to train them.
Threre's always going t be a need for machinists as long as they continue to make things that wear out or break. Very disappointing to see that go away.
Click to expand...
Trained at school is not "experienced machinist".
An employer does not want to have a $60,000.00 per year employee standing behind a $25,000.00 employee for several months, this is what apprenticeships were for. Start at the bottom and learn your way up, this however appears to be a foreign concept today. Learn programming and boom, you are a "machinist".

I am old school but do run CNC machines daily, once you know what you want to do when making a part the programming is just making it do the same motions as you would do it manually without doing so. The ability to tweak the program is priceless.
 
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