Wish they didn't close down the community college machining program

I went to the local community library and ask where I might find books on machining and similar interest materials. Metal working, heat treating, etc. Gal there looked and looked for me (I am gimped so could not handle the stairs so well). She came back and rather embarrassed said they had nothing. Loosing control of my mouth I responded by saying "But I bet you have a whole section on condoms and cucumbers". I could tell she then wanted to throw me out. I saved her the effort. :angry:
 
I have been noticing the same thing. There are allot of valid points in this thread and it has bothered me for awhile. My local library is very large and has NO books on machine shop skills. They did 10 years ago but now they have gone to the used book store to make room for others I guess. There are also no colleges or trade schools that teach machine shop skills in my area even though I live near 2 dozen shipyards. I read a article recently that said colleges and high schools had dropped machinist classes in favor of medical, web and clerical related classes because they had much less overhead. Like someone said college is a big business and if they can get the same amount per credit hour teaching cosmetology as machining but without $100,000+ worth of equipment than it makes more business sense to do so. At the same time I also saw a article about how machining is readily taught in China. It had a photo of a classroom full of grade school kids sitting in front of little 7X10 lathes learning machining.
 
My take is different.

The country has given way to political correctness. The PC crowd running these institutions equate machine shops to industrialization. Industry creates pollution. Pollution, no matter how small, is not good so they are turning us into a service based economy. Close down these programs and offer medical billing clerical studies. Pollution problem will be solved in a couple of generations. At least "they" think it will.

Teach your babies early on ... "Welcome to McDonald's, can (may) I take your order please."
 
This does seem to be a problem all over, maybe a good metaphore is that nasa have taken some saturn 5 motors our of museums and are test running parts to figure out how they work as somone thought the plans for all that old "junk" wasn't worth keeping.

Now they decide actualy we dont know how to buld a motor that big??? Humm we did a while ago though?

Where i went to secondary school we had an amazing (for the time) 3/4 axis slant bed cnc , i never used it , i never saw it run , it was never used, no staff knew how to use it.

we had 3 or 4 long bed lathes, maybe ~4 meters, same story plus claims of helth and safty risk.

I have alwys been keen on the enginearing side of things , luckily we had some working soldering irons and a phisics teacher on the tech course so at least i could learn electronics somwhat.

Sorry for on / off nature of post , lack of courses hit a nerve ;-)

Stuart
 
I was a trade teacher (professional cookery not metal work related) so heres my take on the subject.
When I first started we had what were called adult education courses as well as the conventional trade and business related subjects , some were towards certificates/diplomas etc but the majority were interest classes in all subjects in all trades except hair dressing where they refused anyone unless they were apprenticed to a shop.
All these classes were very reasonably priced so virtually anyone could afford to take them often just for interest.
Every classroom inmy college was full from 8am till 10 pm 5 days a week (virtually no weekend classes except by special demand)
Then out of the blue came two new ideas, The idea that evening adult/community education was not our "Core business" so they stopped every community based evening class and at the same time the concept of "User Pays" or "economic rationalism" entered into the equation which simultaneously out priced any type of non certificate course and also did the same for the remaining sanctioned courses to the point where the majority of students couldnt afford them or had to be a recipient of some kind of government grant to be able to attend (long time unemployed etc).
Colleges were pushed and pushed to become a business and make a profit, management/directors were placed on 3 year performance contracts and so wouldnt rock the boat in fear of not having their contracts renewed etc etc.
My classes went from having to interview every student to pick what we thought would be the best to accepting every tom dick and harry and then some just to fill the spaces and even then not enough students. Classes had to reach a minimum of 12 students else they were cancelled.
Allied to this was a drastic slashing of the nominated hours required to teach a topic often by more than 50% but charging the new inflated fees at the original nominated hours required. This was criminal so they removed the "nominated hours" statement from all the syllabus documents.
The effect of these measures now shows up as empty classrooms, shrinking resources, disaffected teaching staff, redundancies at all levels, cheap beginning (not qualified) teachers on part time contracts doing this whilst waiting for a "real" job.
In my not so humble opinion a complete breakdown of the education system.
The only classes for tradies now are for those who are already in an apprenticeship and these have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.
And dont get me started on "Work place health and safety" can you believe electricians training on 12 volts because 240 is too dangerous?
I was castigated for giving up my spare time to help students who were having trouble passing so told the director where to put the job and took early retirement. She probably received a bonus for downsizing my old department.

I have to agree that some teachers were worse than useless but in truth the majority were very good and concerned for their students, unfortunately they were the first to say enough is enough and quit.

I could go on and on but
<End of rant>
 
savarin:
well presented comments. I do not come from the education sector, but I think the same is happening here (US)

My question, while may be a bit simplistic, who are the folks making these decisions?
recent MBA (the bean counters) grads with accounting ((no real life experience) degree?
administrators promoted to the positions because of years of service?
Teachers who dislike the classroom settings?

Looks like the programs presently in place are not working
How to fix it?

sometimes, I m glad I m old
 
savarin:
well presented comments. I do not come from the education sector, but I think the same is happening here (US)

My question, while may be a bit simplistic, who are the folks making these decisions?

Ignorant politicians who just look at the savings in govt funding whilst ignoring the future problems of an uneducated workforce or passing any doubts off with their usual spin.

recent MBA (the bean counters) grads with accounting ((no real life experience) degree?

I'm convinced they are a large part of the problem, remember when they tried to apply time and motion rules into all businesses? What a total cockup that was, unfortunately they are still trying to justify their assumptions. They are awarded a degree in a general course with some obscure dissertation built from highly dubious data then try to inflict their often optimistic claims onto everyone else as a gospel truth.
We seem to live in a world where those in positions of power/authority believe in a "One size fits all" If it works in or for "A" then it obviously must work in or for "B"
The huge push for computer based training is coming from these people because all they can see is a couple of computers teaching an unending line of students and no wages required.
I was one of these in the early days and thought this was the way to go. I wrote a couple of packages and thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.
Then I woke up and realised I was only obsessed with my own cleverness so stopped there and then.
Mind you, there are a couple of areas where they can be useful but generally they are just electronic page turning with a few bells and whistles.
Forget what you read on line about how they are preferred by students because in all the classes I asked the majority of students wanted a real live person they could ask questions from.

administrators promoted to the positions because of years of service?

I could never understand why you had to go into administration to get a wage increase.
Do a superb job, win awards for it, go for promotion and win it, end up doing something totally different and often not very well from what you were promoted for, doesn't make sense.
The Peter principle in full Technicolor and 3D. And virtually every business follows this route, you would think we would have learnt not to by now.
Mind you the opposite is also true, if a teacher was hopeless at teaching they were often shifted into "projects" that were neither use nor ornament and we all suffered.

Teachers who dislike the classroom settings?

I dont think this was ever a problem, I had cart-blanche to teach how I wanted although most practical work did require a workshop (kitchen and laboratory for me)

Looks like the programs presently in place are not working
How to fix it?

I would like to see the whole system turned upon its head starting at the primary schools. These teachers should be the best paid, the most qualified and with the most help.
Classes should be 12 students and no more, this will allow individual work as well as 2's, 3's, 4's, and 6's sized groups. Every teacher should have a teachers aid which will allow individual attention to every child so we stop getting high school students who cannot read or write.
If we loose a child here where they are desperate to learn and love it they are lost for the remainder of their lives.
Every child should be allowed to progress at their own rate, with the smaller class sizes this is possible (assuming the teacher is sufficiently qualified to let this continue.)
Any child who does not reach the level to progress is held back till they do. Again, with the smaller class sizes its possible.

Start with the primary sector then continue it through the high school sector. In twelve years you would end up with the best educated population on the planet.
Universities are a different story as they are often self managed/funded and students by that time usually only require guidance. (a huge simplification but you get my drift)



sometimes, I m glad I m old

You and me three brother.
Sorry for the bandwidth and I promise not to write any more on the subject.
 
It would be satisfying if a local machining expert set up an independent program. He could write a curriculum and safety procedures. It might not be an accredited program that the Human Resource people think is required, but it would be as good as the instructor's reputation. Would bureaucrats try to regulate him out of business?

The other issue is our tort law and liability (as others have indicated in this thread). An independent training shop would have to be very careful. Could they get insurance?

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree because industry could apprentice their own trainees if they wanted.
 
My BP was one of the last machines sold out of a very well known local "tech" HS. While removing it, it was hard not to notice all the beautiful 30' long painted murals above the lockers. Depicting all manner of industry. The same industries this school now apparently looks down upon and deems irrelevant. How ironic. They discontinued the vocational curriculum in favor of art and other nonsense. Those pimply face kids passing me by in the hall were likely oblivious to the true beauty of the murals and their meaning to those of us with an appreciation for things industrial. Sad.
 
From a far away place! It looks like we copied the same fault.Our production capacity is
demolished,an inflated service sector,selling services no body wants.Tourist operations
our only hope!!.There are government analysts calling Tourism "our heavy Industry".
And the Bankers, Oh the Bankers.My country is in crisis,but I can see from here that if
you loose your production capacity,you are taking the road of Great Britain that is
without the "Great". Sorry for being punchy,no offense to anybody but situation
becomes unbearable.

P.S My lathe also came from a "restructured" technical School.

Ariscats
 
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