Used US industrial vs New import....

A

ArmyDoc

Registered
Registered
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
493
It's the age old question, and I don't know if it will every be answered. But I was wondering if it could be approached a different way...

It's the fear of every new hobbyist that, not knowing any better they drop a couple of grand on a used machine that is no good anymore, or that they spend the same couple of grand on a new machine that turns out to be too small for what they want to do. I'm talking about the $3-5,000 price range.

So, say you are considering a PM-833T or a PM-835S for a new mill vs a used Wells-Indes or Bridgeport in the same price range. something like one of these:
www.theequipmenthub.com

Webb Champ 10" x 50" Variable Speed Vertical Milling machine w/ DRO, Power Feed | The Equipment Hub

General Info: Stock #: SB-200010 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Webb Model: Champ Serial #: 6656 Year: 1990 Approx. Shipping Weight: 3,500 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 72″ L x 72″ W x 93″ H Skidding Fee: $200 Specifications: Table Size: 10″ x 50″ Longitudinal Travel (X-Axis): 36″ Cross...
www.theequipmenthub.com www.theequipmenthub.com
www.theequipmenthub.com

Amada AM-103 Heavy Duty Vertical Milling Machine w/ 3-Axis DRO | The Equipment Hub

General Info: Stock #: CD-191040 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Amada Model: AM-103 Serial #: 16320198 Year: 1986 Approx. Shipping Weight: 4,200 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 75″ L x 75″ W x 91″ H Skidding Fee: $250 Specifications: Table Size: 11-13/16″ x 41-3/8″ Spindle Speeds (16): 70...
www.theequipmenthub.com www.theequipmenthub.com

Assume you can do the normal things like make sure it turns on, sounds like it is running smoothly in all speed ranges, shake the table to see if it moves, check to see that it runs across it's full range of x,y and z axis's etc, but that you aren't able to spend more than say 5 or 10 minutes examining it. In other words, no one is going to buy a machine with obvious issues. But if it looks good, sounds good and seems to function well, how likely is it that it will have a serious issue? Is it more likely to perform worse, better or the same as the new but smaller machines?

What about the same basic question but for a PM-1340GT lathe vs something like these:
www.theequipmenthub.com

DoAll Romi 13-5 13" x 60" Engine Lathe | The Equipment Hub

General Info: Stock #: CD-191235 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: DoAll Romi Model: 13-5 Serial #: 32869 Approx. Shipping Weight: 3,500 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 106″ L x 52″ W x 68″ H Skidding Fee: $250 Specifications: Swing Over Bed: 13″ Distance Between Centers: 60″ Spindle Speeds...
www.theequipmenthub.com www.theequipmenthub.com
www.theequipmenthub.com

Tos Trencin SN 40B 16″ x 60″ Gap Bed Engine Lathe | The Equipment Hub

General Info: Stock #: CL-191027 Location: Stone Mountain, GA Brand: Tos Trencin Model: SN 40B Serial #: 040150811756 Approx. Shipping Weight: 4,000 Lbs. Approx. Shipping Dimensions: 124″ L x 44″ W x 64″ H Skidding Fee: Skidding Unavailable Specifications: Swing Over Bed: 16″ Distance Between...
www.theequipmenthub.com www.theequipmenthub.com

Is there a different level of concern with a lathe vs a Mill, or is it pretty much the same thing?
 
My opinion is that for the same purchase price, the used iron offers more. Just about any issue can be repaired, and btw, read the threads on new import purchases that have problems...you could end up with a big repair effort even if there is a warranty.

Mill or lathe, same logic applies.
 
I'll second winegrower. I'm surprised how soon the imports lose motors or have electrical problems.
This of course on top of the poor fit and light construction.
I'm one of the old iron guys. You get more machine and they can be rebuilt for life.
The exceptions would be, significant way damage/wear and spindle bearings.
In some cases the spindle bearings cost more than the lathe, if you can get them.
 
Janderso said:
I'll second winegrower. I'm surprised how soon the imports lose motors or have electrical problems.
This of course on top of the poor fit and light construction.
I'm one of the old iron guys. You get more machine and they can be rebuilt for life.
The exceptions would be, significant way damage/wear and spindle bearings.
In some cases the spindle bearings cost more than the lathe, if you can get them.
Click to expand...
How easy / hard is it to identify spindle bearing damage?
 
I might not be qualified to answer this, because I have never bought a new import machine (nor will I). Nothing is more majestic than an old commercial machine that has been maintained. Old iron tends to be adequately powered, massive, rigid. Old machines are often found turning smoothly on their OEM bearings, bearings that cost plenty more of the percentage of a machine's cost when new. Parts drawings and documentation can be had for old iron from Ozark Tool Manuals and come up on eBay. Cleaning and adjusting is easy. Sourcing and swapping motors is usually not a big deal if needed. Now that VFD and RPC power is cheap, there's no reason not to buy a 3-phase machine and possibly gain variable speed control out of the deal. I've never said "ooh" or "aah" over any page of the PM catalog, but you can bet I do in the Monarch, Van Norman, and Deckel sections!

It's like I say to my friends when they show off their brand-new pickup trucks: "Meh, now you've got 5 years of payments and a truck you can't pick out as yours in a full parking lot."
 
you'll get more iron for your money with used, that's for sure. If you have some mechanical aptitude there isn't too much of consequence that can't be fixed on old machines, but if you want a plug and play tool with a warranty, then new is where it's at.

Whatever you get though, don't forget the cost of tooling - chucks and steadys for those larger lathes are big $$ if you have to buy them afterwards.
 
Wear on the sliding surfaces or major cracks in the iron castings are the two biggies for me. But machines bought for hobby use can be a bit worn and still make good parts. Gotta look over machines closely for the crack issue, especially if they have been painted recently
Back in the 70s my friends and I didn't think much of the import machines. Times have sure changed.
-Mark
Replacing bearings doesn't bother me, except for some very expensive lathe bearings
Vari-speed mill heads can take a bit of work to rebuild, the step pulley versions are a little easier
 
Last edited:
ArmyDoc said:
How easy / hard is it to identify spindle bearing damage?
Click to expand...
Good question.
I have limited experience so I'll share what I know.
I had a 1941 South Bend 13. The spindle bearings consisted of a polished spindle shaft and cast iron bearings. As long as they always had clean oil and were adjusted properly, they will probably last another 100 years. They were pristine.
On roller bearings you would check the TIR. Total indicated reading, of the lateral movement when turning the spindle.
The TIR should be checked after it gets to operating temp. 30 minutes?
Shut it down then check the spindle run-out. It should read .001" or less, the manufacturer will have specs at www.vintagemachinery.org
You should check end play also.
When you run the lathe listen for unusual noises, check for looseness and feel for heat.
imho
 
Not adding anything other than opinion. Condition on used iron is everything. Pound for pound, a NOS US made machine tool would be my choice over a new import. You will be hard pressed to find a 1950 Clausing 6000 series lathe (for example) that hasn't been used. Hence, the condition clause.

I don't have any data to support it, my opinion is old US iron was designed and manufactured with the intent of getting heavy use. Production shops will pay extra for a machine that runs all day, every day without having to fiddle with it. My impression of current import hobby-level machine tools is they are designed for light use. Current climate is to throw it out when it starts giving you trouble instead of trying to fix it.

I have a Clausing 5418 lathe (12" x 24") that was purchased new from the Kalamazoo factory by my dad in 1964 as part of the equipment to outfit the shop at Waverly High School in Lansing, MI. Kids used the lathe, so not production work, though many inexperienced users. I bought the lathe in around 1990 when the shop was shut down. It has given me no trouble and the wear was minimal. I can't feel any ridges in the bed from the carriage. I do a really crude check for bed wear by taking the carriage to the far right end and lightly engage the carriage lock while jogging the longitudinal feed crank back/forth. When it feels like it's giving some resistance, I crank to the head stock. If it's really loosey goosey at the head stock, I repeat the carriage lock check at the chuck. When it starts feeling a little snug, try to crank out to the tail stock end. If it starts getting really tight, there's some bed wear. Probably a better way is to use a test bar between centers and sweep the top or bottom with a dial test indicator. Do the same thing with the tail stock; clamp loosely at the head stock and try to move it to the tail stock end.

I also have a 1981 Bridgeport that made it's way in my shop 3 years ago. I'm the second owner. It's a CNC mill, so has ball screws. The seller and I measured the back lash at <0.001" in the X and Y. The way are chromed and still show the flaking. Table was pristine and has hints of flaking too. We extended the quill 5", put an indicator on it and measured maybe 0.0005" in radial play. Indicated on the R8 spindle and turned it by hand, no DTI movement. I paid $4000 for the BP. As an aside, the seller's shop was cleaner than a hospital operating room. I thought I was anal until I met him. A machinist at work recommended when looking at used equipment to ask "How tough is it to get to all of the lubrication points?" If they him and haw, be very careful. I asked the BP seller about his SB 9A and he pulled out a log book when he'd lubed the machine at the various points. I'm bad, but not that bad.

Before buying my BP, I looked at a 1 1/2 HP Series 1 with a 42" table. Seller was asking $1000. I won't bore you with the complete description, but it was a project. The parts are all available, and might have been a salvageable machine, but it wasn't for me. Plus, when I asked him the lube question he said something like "Easy, I just don't worry about it".

I also have a Grizzly G0709 14" x 40" lathe that I bought new around 4 years ago. I've probably run the lathe less than 400 hours in 4 years and it has given me absolutely no problems. Would not hesitate to buy the same lathe again. Designs have changed to accommodate metric/English threading, DRO's, etc. I had a warranty which basically means anything that was broken or needed to be fixed would get a free part replacement with me providing the labor (pretty standard practice). But if I could have picked up a Clausing Colchester 15" x 40" or a LeBlond Regal, would have considered them also. My Grizzly weighs around 1600 lbs., the Clausing Colchester is probably over 2500 lbs. I currently don't have a good way to move 3000 lbs. equipment, so went with the Grizzly.

If you are searching for used, try the search engine "Search Tempest" (searchtempest.com). It searches Craig's List, eBay and Amazon. You enter sort criteria like new/used, distance from your zip, price range, etc. Here are a few within a state or two of you.

Bruce

Cincinnati 13" x 36" for $3750 in NC.
charlotte.craigslist.org

Cincinnati Metal Lathe - tools - by owner - sale

13" geared head metal lathe (toolroom lathe), 3 hp., 13" swing, 36" between centers, 10" 3 jaw...
charlotte.craigslist.org

DoAll 13" x 24" for $2000 in Orlando
orlando.craigslist.org

DoAll 13", lathe, turning lathe - heavy equipment - by owner - sale

Very good working DoAll metal lathe Specifications: Model: DoAll 13" Swing over bed: 13" Bed...
orlando.craigslist.org

South Bend 16" x 36" (or longer) for $2500 South of Nashville
nashville.craigslist.org

Southbend 16” Metal Lathe. - tools - by owner - sale

16” South Bend lathe, nice 3 jaw chuck, taper attachment, tool post, chip tray. 3 phase. Lathe...
nashville.craigslist.org
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top