The welder selection decisions?

[Janderso]

For what I spent on a multi-process I could have bought a much better MIG welder (more power, higher duty cycle, pulsed MIG). Nice machine but overkill for my needs. I also could have spent half as much to get a comparable MIG welder or 2/3 as much for a comparable TIG welder.

I bought the Miller 220 AC/DC multi use (AC/DC TIG-MIG-Stick) It was a lot of money >$3000. After learning more about pulsing and AC balance I discovered this machine can be manually set as well.
I figured there has to be a difference between a $1,200 and a $3,000 machine.
I've been happy so far and for the price, I should be.

 

[Papa Charlie]

A lot of good information here. I have always like Miller and Lincoln but these days, everyone knows the technology. The quality of the components is what changes.

In my opinion:
If you plan to do some heavy welding, then spending thousands on Miller and Lincoln makes sense but keep in mind, not all models are the same. I have done a lot of work using a Lincoln MIG 110V unit. It worked fine for welding some pretty heavy material. I have also used large industrial machines. They are great if you plan to weld all day long and do heavy materials. But you can do heavier materials with small units, just takes a little more effort.

But looking forward, my plan is to buy a multipurpose unit (MIG, TIG, Stick). I am seriously looking at the Vulcan Omnipro 220 from HF. Ya, I know HF, but I have talked with several that have them and they are very pleased and I know the demand of these users and they expect industrial type performance from these units, quality wise. Yes the duty cycle is not high, I think 20% but for most of us, that is more than enough.

What I think is just as important it the torches you use. At least for TIG. The Vulcan does not come with the TIG torch but that is fine by me as I will spend a little more for a good quality torch.

OMNIPRO 220 Industrial Multiprocess Welder with 120/240V Input

Amazing deals on this Omnipro 220 Multiprocess Welder at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[pontiac428]

I think this is a great thread with lots of good, helpful discussion.

I'm not a newcomer to welding. My dad, a welding industry technical careerist, started teaching me how to weld about the same time I was learning how to ride a bike. When circuit boards started showing up in welders, and later digits and microcontrollers, there has been the possibility of board failure. Batches of bad capacitors helped feed my distrust, as well as oxidation as components age. The availability of replacement parts is everything. For many years I have had what was once a $15k industrial plasma cutter. When Thermal Dynamics discontinued support for the popular model, the industry dropped the equipment like a hot potato (which is the reason I have one). One of these days, I'm going to go to use it, and it might be dead. That's going to suck, but my plasma cutter isn't going to take my MIG and TIG welders out along with it! Why would anyone want an all-in-one machine, and one with no factory support, no less? Industrial electronics are much different than consumer electronics, which is in your welder?

If you do a little farm repair or like welding for the same reason you like frying ants with a magnifying glass on the driveway to break up quarantine boredom, then maybe an all-in-one will get you started without upsetting the spouse. But if you're serious, stick with discrete machines (that means single-function, y'all) from the top 5 manufacturers. Your future self will thank you for it.

 

[Aaron_W]

I bought the Miller 220 AC/DC multi use (AC/DC TIG-MIG-Stick) It was a lot of money >$3000. After learning more about pulsing and AC balance I discovered this machine can be manually set as well.
I figured there has to be a difference between a $1,200 and a $3,000 machine.
I've been happy so far and for the price, I should be.

That is what I was getting at, I think most hobbyists would be quite adequately served by a $1200 +/- MIG welder and / or a $2000 TIG welder, so that is the performance level where looking at multi-process machines makes sense, at a lesser level (capability not cost) you are cutting into performance if you expect the same level at the lower price point.

Looking at Miller since it is what I'm most familiar with you have the 211 MIG welder @ $1355, and on the TIG side is the Diversion 180 @ $2289. To get to "better" there is quite a jump, for MIG you have the 252 @ $2895 or the 255 @ $3139, for TIG the next step up is the Synchrowave 210 @ $3044 or Dynasty 210 @ $3987.

For $3099 you can get the 220 Multiprocess which more or less gives you the Miller 211 and Diversion 180 in one box (not quite, the 220's TIG specs are a little better than the D180). Since a jump up to a $3000 MIG or TIG machine is probably more machine than the average garage guy needs, I don't see this as a compromise to put them together. Having two machines in the footprint of one is a plus for a lot of people with a small garage or basement shop, not so much for a guy with a shop in a 40x60 outbuilding.

The welding classes I took, mostly used Miller machines, so I got to use some of the higher end machines, 252 MIG welders and water cooled Dynasty 210 TIG welders.
The 252 is definitely a beefier machine for MIG welding than a 211 or the 220. It has a duty cycle of 60% @ 200A vs 105A for the 211 or 220, it also goes up to 250A vs 200A, so it is rated to single pass 1/2" vs 3/8" for the smaller machines.
Using the bigger machine I could tell it was more robust, the fan only came on a few times when I was making particularly long welds, where on mine (220) the fan comes on almost immediately after pulling the trigger. Other than that though there was no noticeable difference in the quality of welds made, and since I'm not likely to be doing much welding of 1/2" in my shop, I don't feel like I under bought.

On the TIG side the Synchrowave is a really nice machine, 60% duty cycle @ 210A vs 20% @ 210A on the 220 (and air cooled torch). With the water cooler we are also talking about a $6400 set up compared to a $3000 set up, so it better be noticeably better.
That said I again don't feel under served with the 220 for a home shop, yes it is a lighter duty machine, and doesn't have all the fancy features of the more expensive machine but it still welds well, and can do everything I want it to do. For me to spend $6400 the machine better be putting food on my plate.

A lot of good information here. I have always like Miller and Lincoln but these days, everyone knows the technology. The quality of the components is what changes.

In my opinion:
If you plan to do some heavy welding, then spending thousands on Miller and Lincoln makes sense but keep in mind, not all models are the same. I have done a lot of work using a Lincoln MIG 110V unit. It worked fine for welding some pretty heavy material. I have also used large industrial machines. They are great if you plan to weld all day long and do heavy materials. But you can do heavier materials with small units, just takes a little more effort.

But looking forward, my plan is to buy a multipurpose unit (MIG, TIG, Stick). I am seriously looking at the Vulcan Omnipro 220 from HF. Ya, I know HF, but I have talked with several that have them and they are very pleased and I know the demand of these users and they expect industrial type performance from these units, quality wise. Yes the duty cycle is not high, I think 20% but for most of us, that is more than enough.

What I think is just as important it the torches you use. At least for TIG. The Vulcan does not come with the TIG torch but that is fine by me as I will spend a little more for a good quality torch.

OMNIPRO 220 Industrial Multiprocess Welder with 120/240V Input

Amazing deals on this Omnipro 220 Multiprocess Welder at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

There are a lot of positive comments about the cheaper machines from Everlast, AHP, HTP and yes even Harbor Freight. The reality is even on the welders still made (assembled?) in the USA most of the electronics in them are being imported.
I think the strongest argument for going with the big names like Lincoln and Miller is local support. The local welding supply I got my machine from is also a certified Lincoln and Miller repair facility, so if I have issues they can work on it, and if it has to get shipped back to the mothership, it is done through them. Everlast has developed a pretty good reputation for customer service, but if there are issues you are still shipping the welder to them for any problems that can't be fixed over the phone. I haven't heard much about the customer service / repair for the others. As for HF I have dealt with them a little bit and their policy seems to be bring it in and we will give you another one as long as it is within their warranty policy, beyond that heave it in the dumpster and buy another one for anything that doesn't share parts with a Grizzly machine.

I would agree with you that a 20-30% duty cycle at a useful power level is adequate for most hobby guys. You do have to watch that though, because I have seen some that show a decent duty cycle but if you look closer it is not at a very realistic power level. This is mostly on the cheaper 120v welders though.

I think this is a great thread with lots of good, helpful discussion.

I'm not a newcomer to welding. My dad, a welding industry technical careerist, started teaching me how to weld about the same time I was learning how to ride a bike. When circuit boards started showing up in welders, and later digits and microcontrollers, there has been the possibility of board failure. Batches of bad capacitors helped feed my distrust, as well as oxidation as components age. The availability of replacement parts is everything. For many years I have had what was once a $15k industrial plasma cutter. When Thermal Dynamics discontinued support for the popular model, the industry dropped the equipment like a hot potato (which is the reason I have one). One of these days, I'm going to go to use it, and it might be dead. That's going to suck, but my plasma cutter isn't going to take my MIG and TIG welders out along with it! Why would anyone want an all-in-one machine, and one with no factory support, no less? Industrial electronics are much different than consumer electronics, which is in your welder?

If you do a little farm repair or like welding for the same reason you like frying ants with a magnifying glass on the driveway to break up quarantine boredom, then maybe an all-in-one will get you started without upsetting the spouse. But if you're serious, stick with discrete machines (that means single-function, y'all) from the top 5 manufacturers. Your future self will thank you for it.

Invertor machines have become the standard and multi-process machines are becoming more common. In 2017 there were only a couple of multi-process machines and they were relatively cheap import machines, or DC TIG only. ESAB and Miller each brought out an AC/DC TIG capable multi-process machine in late 2018. AC/DC multi-process machines are still fairly rare, but there are now quite a few heavy duty multi-process DC TIG machines coming out from Lincoln and Miller so industry must be finding them useful as I don't expect many hobby guys are running 300-650A machines, capable of running 480v with price tags up to $10,000.

I'm not generally a fan of combo machines, but multi-process machines have a place. I also agree that for some separate machines is the way to go.

 

[Lo-Fi]

My chief regret with the multi machine was that I spent £800 on it instead of £400 for a MIG only machine of similar calibre for that process. In my naivety, I didn't know that TIG welding ali in any sensible fashion requires AC and that my multi is DC only. There's no proper pedal support either, it's simply on/off. I've since got a dedicated TIG unit anyway, so essentially I'm £400 out of pocket. My fault, not the machines!

If I did it again, would I go full feature multi or dedicated? Separate. The TIG is tied to the bench. It's literally useless anywhere else. The multi gets lugged about all over, welding cars, steam engines or whatever, but I only ever use it for MIG, so don't have to faff with extra bottles and more torches when I do pick it up. A dedicated MIG would be smaller and lighter, which would be nice. Your requirements are no doubt different from mine, Graham, but that's the benefit of my experience for what it's worth

 

[Papa Charlie]

That is one of the things I like about the specs on the Vulcan Multiprocess 220. It can be setup for foot pedal and it is a true TIG. I don't like core wire and only will weld with gas so transport isn't as much of an issue for me.

 

[graham-xrf]

For me, it is partly about space. The shop, now under construction, is 5.5m x 3.6m (that's about 18ft x 12ft). Bigger than half a garage, but definitely modest compared to some enviable spaces we see here. I thought that one machine would suit better.

Getting deep down about TIG
It's a subtle thing, but some of the "multi" capability is about adding a sales feature. Sometimes when the term is used, it means MMA (stick) + TIG. All TIGs can do stick anyway.

Then there is the type of TIG. As I read it, if you have a MIG machine, adapted to TIG, it means the feed is stopped, and a different handle put on using tungsten electrode. Also, it may then be raw AC, but on some, in the spec (Miller) they say "DC TIG". From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?

Then you get to the more sophisticated genuine TIG features. High frequency pulsed DC is a kind of biased AC, and if the workpiece is made positive, you get less heat in the handle.

There may well be yet more sophisticated weld control feature I don't yet understand, but what we do have is a middle range of MIG welders that can do a "sort of" TIG, and will therefore plug this hard. There are some, generally costing more than $450 (£338) that do use modern electronics to achieve polarity reversal, and a "better" TIG. I note the Sherman calls their type "lift TIG. That is their word for "scratch start", and for some of the cheaper ones, the electrode is always live.

Then, as we get to the $800-$900 range, (£600 - £676) and still looking at those that claim to be "multi MIG + TIG", you then get to where the TIG feature is more fully served. Of course, we know that a $1000+ dedicated MIG machine (say Lincoln) is going to a fine welder. Folk who can fully use a something like this.. ($3983)


Well - that is more than a hobby machinist investment, and it is a dedicated TIG welder! No MIG!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Back to the Polish Sherman, here is what $747 gets you.
--> eBay MIG Welder TIG MMA DIGIMIG



Now look close at the claimed features..
Automatic setting, Predefined programs,
Welding aluminum, 2T / 4T,
Burnback, Gasless welding,
Stick welding, TIG Lift,
Arc force, Hot start, Fan stop,
Settings memory, Anti Stick, VRD,
Voltage correction, Flux, Adjustable inductance,
Spool Gun compatible, Thermal Overload Protection

I have highlighted in red that it is a scratch-start TIG.
It is a 60% duty cycle at 200A, and 100% at 155A machine that uses a 21V-240V input, and the price gets you everything in the picture.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have been dipping in here and there, getting a first idea from eBay, and Amazon, but I know that if you want a Miller Multiprocess of any kind, it's going to take you past $1800+, and gets to $3000 - $4000. You will want to check out the welding shop in your home town, or maybe use the brand website. There are some surprisingly good welders available at good ole' Harbor Freight.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Despite the space issue, I am going to go for a nice dedicated MIG, and use the HobbyWeld deposit-only no rental gas cylinder, and then, if in the future I want to play TIG, I will use a dedicated TIG with RF start, and current waveform PWM (pulse width modulation) control.

 

[pontiac428]

Tempering expectations.

Thinking about welding, we all want to do this:

But we're planning to buy a 10% duty cycle welder that is made for this:

Any questions?

 

[Lo-Fi]

I'd suggest watching:

And

From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?

AC needed only for aluminium welding. Pretty much everything else is done DC.

 

[Aaron_W]

The TIG is tied to the bench. It's literally useless anywhere else. The multi gets lugged about all over, welding cars, steam engines or whatever, but I only ever use it for MIG, so don't have to faff with extra bottles and more torches when I do pick it up. A dedicated MIG would be smaller and lighter, which would be nice. Your requirements are no doubt different from mine, Graham, but that's the benefit of my experience for what it's worth

Well not completely worthless away from the bench, but this is a good point I've not seen brought up before. MIG is basically a go everywhere process, and TIG while maybe not quite bench bound is pretty static in comparison. I have to drag my welder out to my welding area regardless so this never crossed my mind, but yes if you have a nice indoor set up for TIG, that would be a major plus towards separate machines.

For me, it is partly about space. The shop, now under construction, is 5.5m x 3.6m (that's about 18ft x 12ft). Bigger than half a garage, but definitely modest compared to some enviable spaces we see here. I thought that one machine would suit better.

Getting deep down about TIG
It's a subtle thing, but some of the "multi" capability is about adding a sales feature. Sometimes when the term is used, it means MMA (stick) + TIG. All TIGs can do stick anyway.

Then there is the type of TIG. As I read it, if you have a MIG machine, adapted to TIG, it means the feed is stopped, and a different handle put on using tungsten electrode. Also, it may then be raw AC, but on some, in the spec (Miller) they say "DC TIG". From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?

Then you get to the more sophisticated genuine TIG features. High frequency pulsed DC is a kind of biased AC, and if the workpiece is made positive, you get less heat in the handle.

There may well be yet more sophisticated weld control feature I don't yet understand, but what we do have is a middle range of MIG welders that can do a "sort of" TIG, and will therefore plug this hard. There are some, generally costing more than $450 (£338) that do use modern electronics to achieve polarity reversal, and a "better" TIG. I note the Sherman calls their type "lift TIG. That is their word for "scratch start", and for some of the cheaper ones, the electrode is always live.

Then, as we get to the $800-$900 range, (£600 - £676) and still looking at those that claim to be "multi MIG + TIG", you then get to where the TIG feature is more fully served. Of course, we know that a $1000+ dedicated MIG machine (say Lincoln) is going to a fine welder. Folk who can fully use a something like this.. ($3983)

View attachment 346030
Well - that is more than a hobby machinist investment, and it is a dedicated TIG welder! No MIG!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Back to the Polish Sherman, here is what $747 gets you.
--> eBay MIG Welder TIG MMA DIGIMIG

View attachment 346032

Now look close at the claimed features..
Automatic setting, Predefined programs,
Welding aluminum, 2T / 4T,
Burnback, Gasless welding,
Stick welding, TIG Lift,
Arc force, Hot start, Fan stop,
Settings memory, Anti Stick, VRD,
Voltage correction, Flux, Adjustable inductance,
Spool Gun compatible, Thermal Overload Protection

I have highlighted in red that it is a scratch-start TIG.
It is a 60% duty cycle at 200A, and 100% at 155A machine that uses a 21V-240V input, and the price gets you everything in the picture.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have been dipping in here and there, getting a first idea from eBay, and Amazon, but I know that if you want a Miller Multiprocess of any kind, it's going to take you past $1800+, and gets to $3000 - $4000. You will want to check out the welding shop in your home town, or maybe use the brand website. There are some surprisingly good welders available at good ole' Harbor Freight.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Despite the space issue, I am going to go for a nice dedicated MIG, and use the HobbyWeld deposit-only no rental gas cylinder, and then, if in the future I want to play TIG, I will use a dedicated TIG with RF start, and current waveform PWM (pulse width modulation) control.

DC TIG is absolutely a thing, AC TIG is only needed for welding aluminum (the back and forth current breaks up the aluminum oxide "crust" which requires a lot more heat than plain aluminum) and a few exotic metals like magnesium. There are ways to get around that as has been mentioned.
Spool gun for MIG is one way to weld aluminum, but that is like saying MIG welding is a way to get around TIG. Sure it is, but TIG is better for some projects and MIG is better for others. TIG welding a 30 foot seem in a boat hull would probably not be the preferred method, and MIG welding isn't the best choice where you need a very precise and controlled weld.

DC TIG can be used on pretty much any steel including stainless, as well as some more exotic metals like titanium. It can also be used to TIG braze.

DC TIG is not just a cheap multi-process machine thing. There are DC only dedicated TIG welders even from the big companies. AC TIG is a step up in cost even in stand alone machines. Miller (again because this is what I'm most familiar with) has a cheaper line (not inexpensive, just cheaper some are quite expensive and obviously aimed at industry). The least expensive and more of a home user grade is the Maxstar 161, a 160A TIG (DC only machine) for $1355. The cheapest Miller AC/DC TIG is the Diversion 180, a 180 amp AC/DC TIG welder which is $2289, so about $900 to add AC TIG and 20A.

If you were a business that TIG welds stainless steel plumbing fixtures why would you pay for AC on a machine that will never see a piece of aluminum?

You really want HF start with TIG, scratch and lift start is more likely to contaminate the tungsten. HF is not just a marketing thing.

Stick, MIG and TIG have a lot of overlap and they definitely have areas where they stand alone.


With your budget and needs, I think you will be happier with a dedicated MIG or TIG welder (and it sounds like MIG is really what you need). Getting additional processes is nice, but not at the cost of capability. As Lo-Fi pointed out the main issue he had with a multi-process welder was the price point where he bought in. Nothing is free instead of getting a decent $800 MIG or TIG unit you are likely to end up with two unsatisfying $400 welders. Until you get past the break point between very good home welder ($1000-2000) and the jump into industrial welder prices ($3000+), you are just sacrificing the quality of the welders you are getting with a multi-process welder. It is making that leap to industrial machine prices for what are essentially two good quality light duty machines that allows you to get there without giving up function, and you are basically paying for two machines to get there. Some of the "lesser" brands get there at a lower price, maybe $1500 instead of $3000 but the basic concept is still in effect.

You have many more good options available when shopping for a dedicated machine vs a multi-process machine.