The welder selection decisions?

[graham-xrf]

Fur what it's worth: I had a mate argue til he was blue in the face that flux core MIG is "just as good". He's super cheap. Forced a decent gas MIG into his hand... Needless to say, he hasn't looked back and has totally reversed his opinion.

Hobbyweld | Home of the Original Rent Free Gas Cylinders

Hobbyweld supply a range of Rent Free Gas Cylinders, ideal for DIY and light trade welding and gas applications. Stop the rental and start saving today!

hobbyweld.co.uk

No rental charge. Just a 100% refundable bottle deposit. Refills are reasonable too and there are agents literally everywhere UK wide.

I know I hauled this back from way back near the beginning of the thread - sorry about that.
I am the sort who, back in the day (meaning pre-COVID-19), would be going through the store with calculator app dividing price by weight, and sometimes have folk after me choosing the same size pack as I did. I have tried to decode the HobbyWeld products, sizes, prices, etc.

Easy to find that there are a whole lot of rental-free cylinder gas suppliers. Even with nationwide delivery networks. For HobbyWeld, the local agents set their own prices. This had me looking at my location on the map, pretty much in the middle of an "empty" region sans agents. I find the agent "JustKampers" at Odiham.

In all this, even though these are UK prices, I include a conversion at $1.34 = £1.00, and 35.31cu ft is 1 cubic metre

The cylinders are 3 sizes, small (9L at 137bar), medium (called "Plus" 20L at 230bar) and large (called "Ultra" 20L at 300bar)
The rentals for these are 9L £70 , 20L Plus £110, and 20L Ultra £190.
That last one has a special quick-release connection, so becomes £228.85, All these are inclusive of VAT.
The gas volume at standard pressure is given, so I start with the dividing..

Pure Argon for TIG
9L bottle at 137bar -> £52.50 for 1.32m3 --> so £39.77 per cubic metre ($1.51 /cu ft in USA $)
20L bottle at 230bar -> £100.00 for 4.78m3 --> so £20.92 per cubic metre ($0.79 / cu ft in USA $)
20L bottle at 300bar -> £130.25 for 6.06m3 --> so £21.49 per cubic metre (£0.81 / cu ft in USA $) What! ?? Why more?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I compare to --> This supplier in UK (apologies to USA folk)
(Not quite) "Rent free cylinder" Deposit -> £60 ($80.40)
The entire amount deposit is refunded if the cylinder is returned within a year. Then they use a sliding scale every 6 months such that if you don't return the bottle after 3 years, they keep the deposit.

Given that 10L is a relatively small bottle, 2.1m3 or 4.33cu ft. of gas at standard pressure I think most folk will use that up in less than a year!
10 litres pure Argon at 200bar, 2.1m3 -> $66, which is £31.43 per cubic metre ($1.19 /cu ft in USA $)
Free shipping nationwide. This is completely offset by the £20 per cylinder to have the empty returned. There is "store collection", at one address between Manchester and Liverpool. So not for me!

Based on gas price alone, for the small bottle, a better deal than Homeweld!

This is a better deal than HomeWeld. They have separate deliver & collection charges, but at least they have a depot about 12 miles away.
Definitely, in getting hobby gas in deposit-only bottles without rental, one has to do a lot of details checking.
I would think it is likely just as tangled in USA.

 

[graham-xrf]

OK - I purchased the 200A MIG with the clever electronics + bundle of bits to get rolling. It does happen to have "TIG-LIFT" capability, but that is not it's prime design setup. When I get to TIG, I would likely get a dedicated TIG machine. I suppose a magnet square might also be a good idea.

 

[vtcnc]

Graham-xrf,

Yes, when I said Flux-core, I was referring to a machine which looks like a MIG welder, except it does not use bottled gas. The welding "wire" it uses is actually a "tube", which has flux in the core. As it heats up, not only is flux released, but the high heat converts the flux in the center and produces gasses which help shield the weld puddle as well (not to the level of a real MIG welder). However, what has not been mentioned is the fact that flux core wire welders are much more friendly to use outside (a building) than classical MIG/TIG welders. When Using a classical MIG/TIG welder, your "shielding gas" (CO2, CO2/Argon, Argon, Helium) can get blown away by an outside breeze. It is the pocket of protective shield gasses which prevents the weld from getting ugly. When that pocket of gas gets blown away, it produces a result inferior to flux-core wire welding. This means welding "location of use" matters. If you intend to ALWAYS weld inside, then Gas-Using welders (MIG/TIG) are excellent. Flux-core welders are inside/outside welders. There is no question that gas using welder produce a "prettier weld", However, until you develop some skill, don't always trust pretty. Do some practice welds and then cut into them afterwards to inspect the quality of the weld. In the USA, a lot of farmers prefer Stick welding with flux-coated rods, as much of what they weld (farm equipment), has thick metal, AND they frequently must do their repairs outside.

I got started with stick welding, as it was a very economical way to get started. Many years later I got a flux-core wire welder (which to the casual observer looks like a MIG machine, but without the gas cylinder). For thin stuff (5/16th inch 8mm) or thinner, it works rather well. There is no question using a gas welder would produce prettier welds which would not require a wire brush to clean off the surface slag. Flux-Core welders are (for the most part) welding steel. Gas welders open the door to weld other materials, such as aluminum, or with TIG, even titanium. I have seen skilled TIG welders do amazing things, such as weld two thin-walled beer cans side to side with each other (that was the employment proficiency test in a shop I worked in for people who claimed to be TIG welders). This task was made more difficult, as they were not allowed to do surface prep. A blow-through, or a bad weld was a fail.

My main caution is that so many people buy welding equipment which does not match their eventual needs. Getting started with something cheap gives you time to get a feel for what your needs actually are. It gives you a chance to figure out your scale of use. It gives you time to sort out other details as well (location, grinder/wire brushes, Helmet, gloves, apron, welding table, clamps, etc). If you learn to weld correctly on a low-end machine, your welds on a high end machine will just be better. In the past I have been guilty of buying the tip-top super version of a tool, only to discover I only needed a fraction of the capability. This experience has made me cautious, and now I tend to dip my toe in something new, before taking the full plunge. Oh, and the cheap welders can frequently be sold for about 3/4 of their purchase price, as it seems that the market for inexpensive welders is always an active one.

Some day I may get one of the high end, water cooled TIG rigs, which is multi-process, and can do MIG and Plasma cutting... but for now, those are not critical needs for me. Figure out your real needs, before opening your wallet. I realize this advice is the opposite you frequently get in this group, which will frequently suggests you buy the maximum. If you do decide to get a super-machine, then some welding classes would be merited, so you gain the full value of the equipment you purchased.

Boy, do I think this is good advice. I bought one of the Harbor Freight "junk" FCAW about a year ago. I have learned a lot about my horrible techniques, setups, postures, patience, safety, etc. for a few hundred dollars. And I've made ugly, but effective welds. But I wouldn't say the welder is junk - everything works great on the unit. The issue is me and my learning curve - mostly patience.

The nice thing about starting out with stick or flux core is that you can fail fast, and fail cheap. Your learning curve is really quick and you can feel good about learning from your mistakes without burning through cash on more expensive welders, tungsten, filler rods, gas bottles, etc. I say all of this with the notion that you will primarily be doing steel. I know you also want to do aluminum so maybe this advice isn't helpful in the short term, but I would start simple and cheap and build up your skills from there.