Newby lathe advice needed

[Tozguy]

Paul,
That Colchester is a beauty! How patient did you have to be to find something like that?
Any number of us would jump on one like that in the classifieds (even if we already have a lathe).
Might I ask your estimate of what it is worth on the market?
Mike

 

[chuckorlando]

Has nothing to do with work size to me. It's the size of everything else. I like a handle you can wrap two hands on. Small machines have tiny ones. They have tiny through holes. I like my draw bar for the 5c and to small you cant use them. My tail stock take to many turns to loosen and then it's sloppy slidding, big machines dont do that. To me it's all the little things that make me enjoy the bigger machines at school. Be them import and new or old iron dont matter as much as size. These little machines do the job but they do feel cheap in comparison. I mean you can take seemingly lite cuts and just watch the thing flex. Then you have to start building custom parts to fix the issues. Hell I need a mill just to work on my lathe to make the lathe rigid enough to make me want to use it. Which is fine by me as I got 250 bucks tied up in it.

I have been thinking the past few days about machine cost used. Peoples fears. I read over and over about having to work on used machines and new ones just plug right in. I get it. But we fail to look at the whole picture in this kinda comparison. The first question you need to ask when comparing a new machine to a 30yr old machine.... Will this new machine even last 30yrs? Will one of these things pull out 100yrs of use and still be running like many old iron machines? I mean if ones concern is not working on a machine, do we consider 4k a throw away? I was always taught tools were an investment. My bridgeport will never, in my life time, be worth less then what I paid for it and with paint and shims I bet a pay check I could make a 1000 on it right now and keep the tooling.

Every machine needs worked on. Now or later they all need worked on. So if that is gonna be a factor, we need to look at that factor. If age is gonna be a factor, we need to look at the projected age a new machine will give and the parts. Theres more life to a machine then they first day and if we are gonna use the first day's work as a factor, we also need to use the long term as a factor

I'm really curious. I see everyone that enjoys the large lathes but honestly, how much of what you are turning that is that big? Not saying there are not reasons to have a big lathe, but unless you are building something specific that is large or running a job shop out of your basement it is usually just excess capacity.

If you are not going to be doing stuff that requires a large lathe, why mess with it? Mine is not that big but I can still pass 3/4 in through my spindle. I can turn things as large as 3 inches diameter in my chuck and as large as a bit under 7 inches on a faceplate. I have been turning things as long as 6 feet long Acme all-thread in my lathe. I honestly can say that I have not come up against much that I couldn't do with my little lathe.

The majority of what most people turn is pretty small stuff. Bushings, fasteners, shoulder bolts, tooling, a little work on the end of a shaft, a bit of screw threading.

 

[David Kirtley]

I have been thinking the past few days about machine cost used. Peoples fears. I read over and over about having to work on used machines and new ones just plug right in. I get it. But we fail to look at the whole picture in this kinda comparison. The first question you need to ask when comparing a new machine to a 30yr old machine.... Will this new machine even last 30yrs?

There is a reason why they depreciate equipment. It wears out. You show me a machine that was really used for 30 years and it is going to take a lot of work to get it back into spec. Even with perfect maintenance, which is a pretty rare thing in industrial equipment.

New machines are rarely just plug in. Down in my bottom feeder range, they can be called little more than a kit in a lot of respects. To me, I don't see much difference in getting an old machine that will take X number of hours work and time hunting parts and getting a new machine and having to spend about the same amount of time and effort getting it to work well. At least the new machine has a vendor that I can get any part that I want. There is no reason why a modern machine shouldn't last just as long as anything else as long as it is maintained and not abused.

At least from my location, old machines are pretty rare. I don't have a trailer nor the rigging to move something big. I can have a new machine sitting in my garage for much less than the cost of transportation if someone just *gave* me an old machine.

 

[chuckorlando]

I dont disagree with you in theory. Except dollar for dollar, your getting alot more machine with old used once it is cleaned up. Be that machine imported or not. Second, you can get parts today for a new machine. I dont know how the machine importers work, but I have had many dealing with asian products that support dries up soon after the model is no longer sold. Which can often times be long before the machine needs parts. I also aint saying a asian machine wont last 30yr. I just dont see a whole lotta old asian machines. I fully understand depreciation. Thats exactly why I never have and never will buy a new car. I'll let the next man put 5 miles on it and get slapped in the head for 25%.

If you buy a machine at the bottom and fix it up your making money not spending it. I'm also basing my view on the machines in school. The much much much newer imports are in much worse shape in much less time with same people using them. If I am to guess between which machines will run the longest out of all of them at school, I would feel very safe betting on all 5 (3 from the 40's) old iron over the 3 imports made in the last 10yrs or so.

I just think one needs to think about every aspect. I dont think either choice is wrong. Just not the same way of looking at things. Like buying new or used cars. All things equal, they are buying from different perspectives.

There is a reason why they depreciate equipment. It wears out. You show me a machine that was really used for 30 years and it is going to take a lot of work to get it back into spec. Even with perfect maintenance, which is a pretty rare thing in industrial equipment.

New machines are rarely just plug in. Down in my bottom feeder range, they can be called little more than a kit in a lot of respects. To me, I don't see much difference in getting an old machine that will take X number of hours work and time hunting parts and getting a new machine and having to spend about the same amount of time and effort getting it to work well. At least the new machine has a vendor that I can get any part that I want. There is no reason why a modern machine shouldn't last just as long as anything else as long as it is maintained and not abused.

At least from my location, old machines are pretty rare. I don't have a trailer nor the rigging to move something big. I can have a new machine sitting in my garage for much less than the cost of transportation if someone just *gave* me an old machine.

 

[visenfile]

I repeat that this outpouring of material from you all is truly heartwarming. I am preparing to answer.

 

[Ed W]

Like the OP, I too live in the Pacific Northwest. For whatever reason used industrial sized machines seem relatively rare here. As a noobie one needs to be careful about used equipment and, as pointed out by others, condition can be a real unknown. There are a number of honest tool dealers in CA and they will at least give you condition information that is a start. Frankly, I could not bring myself to buy a used machine without personally inspecting it and that will require travel. You could blow much of your budget simply getting to see then ship the machine!:think1:
New larger machines (14 x 40 or larger) from Asia tend to be better quality than the hobby size machines, especially the machines from Taiwan or Korea. (Think weight.) Unfortunately, a 4K budget won't get you there. Grizzly and PM are a very reasonable compromises for good quality Chinese machines. Service is important and you won't get as much from many other vendors. Try to buy the machine you can stay with for a while. A smaller machine (less than 12 x 36) may ultimately prove to be an issue. I know lots of folks who manage with small machines but they do seem to be making certain compromises in their work choices. You need to be honest with yourself what kind of work you're going to do and how often you will use the machine. A complex series of decisions that only you can make. Spend some time on ebay, craigslist and the sites for PM and Grizzly. There is a wealth of information there but it takes a lot of screen time. And as you have already noticed, the experienced and generous folks here are very helpful. (They often helped me just by reading other peoples' posts!) FWIW, my $0.02...

Ed

 

[David Kirtley]

I'm also basing my view on the machines in school. The much much much newer imports are in much worse shape in much less time with same people using them. If I am to guess between which machines will run the longest out of all of them at school, I would feel very safe betting on all 5 (3 from the 40's) old iron over the 3 imports made in the last 10yrs or so.

But really we are dealing with a sampling error. It wasn't that *all* the old machines were that great. It is more that the old ones that survived were good or just ended up getting saved by chance. Let's single out South Bend just as an example. How many lathes did they make over the years? How many still survive as usable? The survivors are a pretty small percentage.

We have a similar setup over in the machine shop here where I work. I do see a bias though. They have a couple really nice older (from the early 80's when they built the shop) big South Bend lathes and several junkers. An old Emco, Jet, and the like. They direct the newbies to the cheap lathes and only the experienced people get the nice lathes. The two big South Bend lathes look like they just came in off the showroom floor. Any crashes and the like happen to the junkers which end up not lasting as long but not because they were bad machines.

Now, you will see a lot more old U.S. made lathes than the asian lathes but to be fair, many of these manufacturers didn't exist 30 years ago. The biggest issues of the new machines isn't their overall construction but more the corners cut on fit and finish.

 

[chuckorlando]

Very solid points on all accounts.

 

[samthedog]

Paul,
That Colchester is a beauty! How patient did you have to be to find something like that?
Any number of us would jump on one like that in the classifieds (even if we already have a lathe).
Might I ask your estimate of what it is worth on the market?
Mike

Hello Mike, a little off topic but is still in the spirit of the thread so here goes...

From when I decided I wanted a lathe to when this one arrived I waited 7 years. In that time I did buy a little fixer-upper to learn the basics and to flip in order to fund a better machine.

Regarding cost, I am of the belief that I would rather be cheated on price than quality. Since this machine had a single owner from when it was new and this gentleman meticulously maintained the machine, I paid what many would consider top dollar: $4000

It did however come with 7 tool holders, the large chip pan / shield, MT3 shaft and drill chuck, travelling steady, Pratt Burned 4 jaw chuck rated to 3000 rpm, Pratt Burned scrolling 3 jaw chuck rated to 3000 rpm, back plate and dogs of various sizes but most importantly, a full set of change gears that allows every conceivable thread to be cut.

All the accessories were in immaculate condition also. I am not sure what it is worth on the market nowadays but I have been offered twice what it cost me but I won't part with it. This has been the cleanest example of a Colchester Chipmaster I have ever seen and mechanically it is near perfect with tolerances within factory spec despite it's production date of 1964.

This is what waiting, research and checking every available channel will net you. My milling machine is a similar story but I believe I have rabbited on enough )

Paul.

 

[visenfile]

Tozguy-thanks.The BASEMENT!! This silences any whine here as my approach is flat concrete. I did use the H Frt hoist to install the mill drill.

Chuckorlando-thanks. Your tips are great, especially (for me ) the 7:39AM

David Kirtley-thanks. You cause me to do memory dump. I agree accross the years I needed lots of small stuff, but as auto enthusiast, also larger stuff e.g.,flywheel
size, tool adapters. hubs, shafts, and especially thread chasing and cutting, including metric. I bought wide ranges of tap/dies, but murphy always conspired
to throw me a new pitch. I have watched Turn Wright Machine Shop , Nantucket (youtube) , and believe my stuff is like that ( of course smaller scale
and without the lips on the wall pass- thru which wife would censor).

toolman-thanks. I am interested in spindle bore sizes. I was just somewhat surprised by discountoolonline offering PM11-27 VF-LB. It looked interesting ,but the
500Lb weight seems really low. The video shows a large tube or shaft being happily turned. Wadda ya think??

samthedog-thanks. Your lathe is pretty enough to sit in my living room beside the Ducati (I don't own).

EdW thanks. So stretch again to $5k for e.g., the PM1440B?? A biggie that does intimidate me as a newbie.