Milling machine - Rockwell vs. Clausing vs. import

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Levi

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Ok, heres the story..
I work in a shop were I have every imaginable machine available, but I've decided to build a modest shop in my basement at home, I'm in my 50s so It's a kind of retirement planning.
While I could spend "real" money, it's a nice personal challenge to look for bargains, and so far I'm doing pretty good. Older Dalton bench lathe ($125) which I've converted to a 3 phase VFD, A decent modern standing drill press, and last week a Logan 8" shaper with vise ($350).
Of course right now I'm feeling pretty good about things, and I might be willing to actually spend a few bucks on the right vertical mill.
The question is which one? I suppose an older bridgeport would be a good choice, It would be difficult, though not impossible to get it in my basement since It is a walkout. Still it would be a pretty big footprint, and I'm trying to keep the peace with my wife. I've successfully negotiated a decent sized piece of the basement, I just need to be careful and not get too carried away. (at some point I see a small grinder in my future also).
It looks like my possibilities are either the Rockwell-Delta mill, or the Clausing, or possibly a Benchmaster. there may be other more obscure possibilities, and certainly if I lived in England/Europe the possibilities increase. Of the three mentioned above the Rockwell seems to be the most visually appealing, Maybe it just looks more like a shrunk down Bridgeport? Also has R-8 spindle. The Clausing has a more bare-bones look, and either B+S or morse taper spindle, but it looks like it might be a stouter machine. I don't know that much about the benchmaster They seem to be more rare, so I probably shouldn't get my hopes up on finding one.
Then come the asian imports.....
I've ruled out the round column mill drill, because I don't like the hassle of loosing location when moving the head up/down. (Actually I have one that I inherited from my Dad, but it's at my Brother in laws house, and I intend to let him keep it.
That leaves two other choices one from Grizzly or Harbor freight that is essentially a clone of the Clausing, with a moveable knee. since I'm used to a Bridgeport this is the form that seems "right" to me.
But I see that there are quite a few now available with a moveable head mounted on a column with ways. That's the one I know the least about... will I be satisfied with the rigidity of the whole thing? price wise, it seems I can spend more on a new import than on a older used American made machine.
Please discuss, and thanks for being the "friendly" site.
Levi in St Louis.
 
If you're not in a rush, I vote for keeping on the prowl for American Iron. The Hunt is part of the fun anyway. Besides Rockwell and Clausing, add Burke Millrite to your list. The are also Hardinge horizontal mills that often have vertical heads added which end up being similar sized. Having said all this, I ended up getting a Chinese mill, an Enco 100-1525, it was a 1990 machine that was nearly new sitting in an old gent's garage. It was such a cute little baby 2/3 BP clone that it followed me home. It also was finished much nicer than typical Chinese machines. There is also a Jet version of the same machine (JVM836). Maybe worth considering for the right deal.

One more data point to check out is a Deckel FP1, an amazing machine for limited space if your lucky enough to find one, but maybe a bit odd if you're used to BP style machines. Also, a BP Series 1 round-ram with a 32" or 36" table is not that much bigger than the above machines. People dump on the round ram machines, but a LOT of US industry was built with them.
 
Be aware that Grizzly has two machines that appear to be Clausing clones. There is considerable difference in size. One has a 6 X 26 table, the other is 8 X 30. The difference between the two that really makes a difference is vertical clearance.

Another import machine to look at is the Industrial Hobbies manual mill, which has a 9 1/2 X 39 1/2 table. A machine of considerable capability.

http://www.ihcnc.com/

Bill
 
I bought an Enco turret mill,similar to the Clausing. It was for another shop location. Anyway,this mill was not used much before I got it. I noticed that the table would jump threads on the nut. When I took it apart,I saw that the threads on BOTH the table's movements were cut only about .015" deep. They were NOT worn,they were just never good to start with. Also,the lead screws were metric,leaving annoying extra thousandths on the dial,a pain to deal with when you want too traverse several inches. On by Bridgeport type,the dials are a nice even .200" per rotation.

Enco doesn't carry the mill any more,and no parts available. I tried buying nuts from the identical Grizzly mill. They were completely different.

So,if possible,buy old American equipment,but not worn out old USA stuff.
 
I like the older Bridgeport round column design, and you're right, with a smaller (36"?) table the size might be manageable.
For some reason I thought the Burk millrite was as big as a Bridgeport, but lathes.co says it has a weight of only 1100 lbs In either case, I would probably try and disassemble and then reassemble in the basement. I've noticed that some of the Bridgeport clones are quite a bit heavier than the original.
Having said that, I'm encouraged that you say you have the 2/3 asian clone and it is a respectable machine. In my head I'm thinking that sized machine should be better finished than the smaller "mill drills" which are made by the thousands.

I love the universal European Mills, and have gained a lot of respect for British, German ect. engineering after spending time examining all the specimens at lathe.co.uk. Back in the 50's there were some really interesting, and I might say quirky machines available. I wonder how expensive they would be in todays dollars? I suppose that if I found a European machine that I could really fall in love with I might be willing to break out the checkbook and spend some real money.

In any case patience is a virtue, It took 3 month of checking craigslist many times a day before I located the Logan shaper only 3 miles from my house.
 
Levi,

Hopefully Bob (Buickgsman) will respond to this thread as far as the comparison between the Rockwell and the Clausing. A while back he ended up with both machines and took some pic's of them side by side. I always thought they were roughly the same, but the pictures showed the RW to be substantially beefier in the column in particular. I was a little surprised.

I have the pic's he sent but wouldn't be comfortable passing them on. Hopefully he will see this and share his pic's.

Steve
 
I'm shocked you found a shaper, that inexpensively!!!! And have not found a mill to your specs?!! :) Good for you- the shaper is much harder to find. I'm prowling for a shaper, and here in NJ, mills come up every week!

I love my Hardinge TM. Crazily heavy and overbuilt for it's size. It had a Rusnok Vertical Head on it when I got it. I do love a Knee mill as well, as i much prefer it, on a heavy machine, to the idea of moving a headstock around. there are plenty of arguments on both sides of that. I have not owned an Asian machine tool besides a drill press from 20 years ago, which is fine. (But I AM looking to replace it). But again, LOTS of people love them.

Clausing 85xx mills are lovely, well built, and have a usable work envelope. Can really be moved by two people, fully assembled, with a hand truck. The Rockwell mill is somewhat bigger, bigger table, and more Z (knee) movement. It is still easily moved by two or three people with the head removed. I lifted the head back on one last week by myself. Millrite is about the same size as a Rockwell if my memory serves me.

Bridgeport is entirely heavier than any above, depending on the model. Hardinge is 900lbs, and not really easy to make smaller for transport (and I've moved it 3 times! :) ... the Bridgeport is heavier assembled, but still totally movable into a ground access shop. Not too much bigger in effective footprint than any of the three above with the 36 inch table. It breaks down more simply than the Hardinge into manageable pieces.

Uhaul 6x12 open trailer ($40 a day), a rented engine hoist, lots of straps, handtruck, dollies, wood, pieces of pipe, crowbars, and a few hundred pounds worth friends (I mean that literally) and you can get any of these machines home and in place.

If you keep your eyes peeled, you can find the American machine with the scrape marks still on the ways etc. I just got lucky like that with a lathe.

OR, you get the machine you want, in whatever condition, tool it up, get used to it, and when a cherry one comes along, you just replace the machine itself, and keep all your accessories you've collected for years. This is what I DID. Someone practically gave me my first Heavy Ten. I was so happy- and it did great work, even though it was a beater. I tooled it and worked well with it for ten years. I just replaced it with a pretty mint one, and none of the work involved finding accessories! I just moved it right in!

I have seen a lot of happy people buy the Asian machines. Some show up very well appointed. I think they go for a quite a few bucks though. For the same exact dollar, there are heavier and more well appointed American machines when you get into the 1000 lb++ category- and spending $1,500++.
I have also been reading for many years about many who enjoy soup-ing their less expensive Asian machines up, and re-making less refined models into what they wanted in the first place.

It really depends on what story you like. I love finding out for years, as I am still learning, why some small part was made like it was that i couldn't even know until i was really becoming more talented. "OH, THAT's why that is shaped like that!!" Etc. I love thinking about what my machines have done before I got my grimy paws on them. And I love fixing them up.


Bernie
 
Yeah, I got lucky with the Shaper, and actually I'd been looking for it first, knowing it would be hard to find. then last week I get up, and check my local craigslist, and there it was staring me in the face. I didn't waste any time.
There is a Clausing about a hundred miles from me, but the guy wants 2 grand for it, I haven't looked at the actual machine. If I could get him down to 1500 I'd probably load it up.
 
What does it come with? Is it in nice condition? The ways originally had scrape marks on this machine. At least I have seen a few with nice scrape marks on the ways and table.

That is a lot of $$, but they are very nice machines, and compact. I know a guy who sort of "collects" machines, and sometimes fixes them up and resells them. He just found an 8520, and is keeping it as his main machine. MT2 spindle, graduated turret and "overarm". But he doesn't machine much yet (long story)

Do you have any type of project that tempts your fancy as yet? This might help you determine size you might need.

Reselling an 8520 really is a piece of cake, so if you think it is too small, I don't hank you can lose. EVERYONE wants them because they are easily moved. I think it is a little harder to resell a Bridgeport, as people think they are so hard to move. And are harder to move.

So far I have acquired a really beat up Atlas 618, fixed it up, and sold it, and only included basic accessories. Bought a mint one and used the rest of my accessories. Same story with Heavy Ten. But again, ten years of good work with my somewhat worn one and I am just starting to look again :)
I love my machines, but if I have a chance to "trade up" I will. I am happy to have the worn machines I have had until those opportunities arise. I will someday replace my Hardinge for a more "cherry" model.


Bernie
 
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