How big a lathe/mill is enough?

Pmedic828

Pmedic828

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I just have a general question - how much mill and / or lathe is big enough? I have a small 3 in 1 machine because I do not have a machinist background. I am now retired, was an avid woodworker and decided that I would like to try my hand in metal. I purchased this machine for around 4k with VFD, DRO, etc. Now comes the question....
After reading posts from others, they talk of Bridgeport mills, CNC machines, South bend heavies, etc. When looking on the internet, these machines like the Bridgeport clones cost about 10K+ without accessories - the CNC machines cost big bucks also, I guess I am on a rant, but how much is big enough. I understand that some rebuild or purchase used machines, but here in the South, you can't even find a place to purchase raw stock, let alone, machines. It just doesn't seem right that as a beginner or hobbyist, you have to spend 50K plus to get a manageable machine. 8,000 lbs for a lathe might be good, but how do you move something like that = I also don't have 3 phase power available - it is available from the power company for a mere $25K to bring it in.
I understand that some of you are / were in the machinist business and are now retired, but where do you find this type of equipment? I've looked within 1K miles of Louisiana and there is none to be found; I couldn't move it if I did find it.
I apologize if this sounds like a rant, but it seems like other newbies post their 1st project, and it seems like it is a jet turbine or a complete racing engine. I think that I am doing great if I manage to single point thread, turn a square 4 inch piece of steel to a disk, or make a widget.
I am not complaining but frustrated because I have neither the money or the knowledge to even begin in this hobby? Your thoughts please? :banghead:
 
I think you should start by listing for yourself what it is that you want to make. That will determine size of lathe and if you even need a milling machine. Then factor in your budget. If what you need to pursue your 'what do you want to make' doesn't fit in the budget then something needs to change.
You will get lots of advice such as 'get a Bridgeport and rebuild it', buy the biggest that will fit in your shop, save $ until you can afford X, etc. But the above should be your guide. It is also important IMO to get on with your hobby. Age and health becomes a factor if you delay to long and then you have regrets to deal with.

I'm happy with a Taig lathe and its milling attachment, and limit my hobby to be within those limitations. I live in a condo so a Bridgeport, even if free, is not in the cards :) If/when my housing changes, I will follow my own advice at top of this post.

Gerrit
 
Where you are, you are not far from a tremendous industry in the oilfield. There are countless machine shops within that 1k miles. Trouble is, not many have machines that are smaller, as in hobby size. I have visited many, many shops over the years and really not seen anything much in the way of used machines that fit the bill. As you say, either big bucks, or mega heavy. I think the lightest machine in my little shop is over a ton, unless you count the jewelers lathe I have a side project. From there, even my shop goes up to about 8k. And that's not all that large a machine.

So, you are stuck looking at off the shelf smaller hobby machines, new, and there are many to choose from but there are many variables and you can find horror stories about just about every brand out there. So if you want a project, your choice is take a new one and rework it to suit your expectations, or an old one and undertake a rebuild. Neither sounds appealing for someone wanting to jump in and start making "stuff" right away. Some people enjoy that part of the hobby, some would rather just buy a chip-ready machine. So part of it is just making the decision of how you want to approach the problem.

If you choose to buy a project, just try to find something that a)doesn't need to much, hopefully and b)is a make that you can find support and spares for without breaking the bank or having to wait unreasonably long to find. At times, CL can help. Once in a while, bargains show up from estate liquidations. But, you aren't the only one looking, so you have to be ready to make a move if you find one, and sometimes be willing to go some distance.
 
When I told people I built a machine shop in my basement the first question they asked is what did I want to build. I told them that I didn't have anything specific in mind, but the one thing I was sure of was that without the mill and the lathe I bought, I wasn't going to be building anything! I chose tools that I could build things that were about "head sized". (Actually I have the capability to do a bit larger than that, but it is about right). I bought a high-end Chinese mill which works really well and will cut anything (small) that a full sized Bridgeport can, you just have to take smaller passes. I lucked out and got a nice 9 inch South Bend lathe. Again, small by most standards, but it is really well built and a blast to run (it was fun to refurbish too). Would like a big Bridgeport and a larger lathe, yes, some day maybe, but right now the size I have is fine and I didn't break the bank to build this level of capability.

Rick
 
If you're an avid woodworker, looks like you've won half the battle. You're just making chips instead of saw dust. Assuming from your machine description, your's is a lathe/mill/drill. Looks like a good start.

Before thinking of a project to build, you may want to get some scrap steel (mild cold rolled), look up proper cutting/feed speeds and practice making various cuts. One experience for me is that I needed to cut a thread on a lathe. I haven't used a thread cutting option on a lathe in over 20 years. However, after some practice cuts, it was easy to make my threaded piece.

As far as machine size: I don't know how big your machine is, but if you outgrow yours, you can always trade up. There are a lot of hobbiests and small shops that have good equipment for sale.

As far as CNC, IMHO, become a master at hand cranking first. I believe this is becoming a lost art. Although CNC machines are great money makers for repetitave work and CAD designed items, there is nothing that compares to the craftsmanship hand cut pieces when done right.


Happy trails
 
There is no hard and fast rule for sizing a lathe and mill but I would recommend going as rigid, powerful and stable as possible. Make sure the work envelope of both machines compliment each other.

I have a small hobby shop and I bought the smallest industrial quality machines I could find. My lathe is 550 kg and the mill is 530 kg. I set 600 kg as my limit as the average person can rent and drive a trailer that can handle 600 kg. This is important if I ever want to sell the machines as it makes them desirable to a much broader group of people and therefore easier to sell.

Paul.
 
A 43x420" Pacemaker and K&T 415 would be a start......
 
You ask a very good question. The short answer is...the machine needs to be big enough to do the job you want it to do.


Having said that, your 3-in-1 can do a lot of work including a turbine engine if you are creative enough. You state that you have no machining experience, but I would disagree because you have a lot of wood working experience. Machining, like woodworking, is solving a series of small problems to achieve the desired result. Single point threading and turning rounds from squares is a great starting point. You take the skills that you learned there and expand on them. I started out working with metal about 50 years ago, so my skill level in metal probably exceeds yours, but I know that you could teach me a lot about woodworking. There is no way you can accumulate a lifetime of skills in a few days or even months. But every day you can learn something new.


In general, there is no right or wrong way to do a machining operation. As long as the desired result is produced, it doesn’t really make a difference how you get there. In all cases of course, shop safety is observed, and you don’t want to damage the machines, but beyond that, anything goes. This is not to say that an operational choice is the best way to get the job done, but what really matters is the end result.


I started out with a bench top lathe and a bench top mill, back in the early 70’s. Made a little money with them, then upgraded about 3 years later to a 14x40 lathe and a Bridgeport clone. Used them to make a little more money to expand my equipment selection. What I have today took a lifetime to acquire, and I have always used my shop to support my tool habit.


Most of the members here do not buy $50K machines, we find deals and pounce on them when they become available. For instance, I paid $1000 for my 10x50 CNC mill, sure it needed some work, but it had good bones. For many of us, our shops are a lifetime accumulation, built up over many years. If I had to go out today and buy all of my tools and equipment new, the cost would exceed a half-million dollars or so, when in fact, I probably have less than $50K invested over the last 30 or 40 years. I did a Craigslist search for another member just yesterday, looking for a lathe and a mill in the Huston area and found a lot of equipment there in the <$5000 range, and that was just a 10 minute search, and that’s only about 250 or so miles from you.


As far as moving equipment, this is where a little creativity and some common sense prevails. I have hauled equipment on U-Haul trailers, around here they rent for about $60/day. And I’m not afraid to load a U-Haul trailer beyond it’s ‘’rated’’ capacity. Many sellers will have a forklift for loading on the pickup end, getting the equipment off at home can be a bit more challenging. If you have a neighbor with a big tractor or a backhoe that’s an option. Or you can rent a forklift for $200/day or so. Come-Alongs and pipe rollers work well also, as do engine hoists for the lighter machines, just plan each operation before you do it. When I bought my place in the country, the first thing I did was to buy a 5000lb forklift for $500 (another Craigslist find), and yes, it needed some work also, but it sure makes it easy to move stuff around.


3 phase power is no problem, that’s why VFDs and phase converters were invented. Most of my equipment is 3 phase, and I am running my whole shop off of one 50 amp single phase circuit. Worst case, you could buy a small 3 phase generator.


So, to answer your question, your machines need to be big enough to do the job you want to do. You have to decide what it is that you want to work on, the size the machines to the job and your budget.
 
Pmedic - believe you me, there are lots of us on this forum that do not make a jet engine as a first project! Heck, most days I'm thrilled that I can get a hole tapped square!

I feel your frustration and in many ways can sympathize. I too am from a wood background and also in an area where industry is pretty much gone, what little there was in the first place. Around here, even micrometers are rarities in the second hand stores. And yes I dream about a Bridgeport but quite frankly it ain't gonna happen for me. My shop is in the basement of my house, the door is only 30 inches wide, and I don't have the power to run one anyways.

So I play with my little 6" Atlas and do what I can realistically manage. I'm not a machinist, never was, and don't want to be. I just want to enjoy it as a hobby, turning the cranks (by hand, yes, with no DRO) and making (small) chips. But I still dream about a SouthBend or a Bridgeport just because hey, what would life be like without dreaming of something better?

-frank
 
Being a guy who isn't owned by a house, I have the same issue as the OP. I've resigned myself that I have to stay within the power limits of my garage, 20A at 110V, single phase. That keeps me out of most of the used industrial equipment. Then I look a pics of what I have made, and I realize that as much as I want a lathe with a 40" swing and a 120" bed, I'd never use that much. Buying a $6k machine that requires $5k of electrical work to make some spacers for my motorcycle isn't justified, no matter how much fun it would be to operate. I do have access to big machines at work (picture a lathe I can chuck my F350 up in and turn it at .5 RPM with a 3" tool). The one "big" machine I use from work is the 72" brake for bending stuff. Heck, the workhorse lathe in the shop at work is a 10" Hardinge, the Haas CNC lathe is mostly a big paper weight.

I have a Grizzly G8689 mini mill and the HF 9x20 lathe. I bought both machines used off of Craigslist, each for $500 with a bit of tooling. The mill falls short on the X travel for a few projects I've done, but it is big enough for 90% of what I make. The HF 9x20 lathe has been a good machine so far. I bought it used from a guy that kept it clean and dialed everything in before he mashed up the 42 tooth apron gear that engages the carriage feed. The one thing it is missing that I use the most on a lathe is the power cross feed. That alone would push me toward a Precision Matthews 10x22.

I'd love to have much larger machines, as a few projects I've done have really been beyond the capacity of what I do have.

As I contemplate doing the CNC route, it would be a fun project just to do it, but I have gotten reasonably good at turning dials on both machines, even taking some paid jobs that have manage to cover the investment in the machines (the tooling is another story).

Advantages I do see with the 3-in-1 machines is having a lathe with a HUGE swing so you could do some cool metal spinning projects and a power feed table out of the box for the mill.
 
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