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Got My First Lathe... Logan 1875 - With Restoration.

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Bob Korves

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#31
Is there any reason " Or is it blasphemy " If I paint this Logan Lathe Other then the factory Blue color..?
Your Logan is a fairly common lathe, not some rare and historically important artifact, at least so far. It is also yours. Paint it in any color scheme you want, pink would be fine... ;)

Soapbox/ON
I have a friend who once chopped and channeled an intact Cord, and also cut the roof off of a running Pierce Arrow, making it into a fair weather convertible. That was when those old cars were more common, but he really wishes now he was able to go back and change his choices on those cars... Old things do not become more common with time, they become more rare, especially in our disposable mindset society. We machinists are often 'restorers' of old machines just so we can have something to work with in our shops. Still, I think many rare and/or ground breaking machines should be looked at as more than metal to be shaped to our whims. Some are also cultural treasures, and tangible history. I am not at all saying we should think of every old machine as a cultural treasure, but I believe we should think carefully about whether the machine needs to be curated BEFORE bending it to the needs and wants of the moment. Sometimes just changing the paint on an rare old machine can be a big mistake, and sometimes it might be better to carefully do just enough to get it running again so it can remain a working view into the past.
Soapbox/OFF
 

Mr Mike

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#32
Your Logan is a fairly common lathe, not some rare and historically important artifact, at least so far. It is also yours. Paint it in any color scheme you want, pink would be fine... ;)
Bob.. Your right this Logan Lathe is not rare..! Which is why I was originally after a Logan Or South Bend lathe from the get go.. but you know how this works right..? The first rule of Murphy's law states if Mike doesn't ask, then Mike gets in hot water. I'm still new to the forums and there could be some Un-Written rule I'm not aware of. Or maybe there is an advantage to keeping it all original - Like a letter from Logan saying thanks for keeping our heritage strong and growing... In which case I would keep it 100% original.

Just like your soapbox story.. I've looked back in life and said I probably should have left it as is, And you know what - I'm with you.. if this was a rare lathe you can bet I would keep It 100% stock - because it would be an artifact of humanity.
But now that I know there is no issue of customizing it, I intend to improve it somewhat..

Thanks for all your help with Info Bob, I appreciate it.
 

wa5cab

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#33
Well, I'm sort of a Sailors belong on Ships and Ships belong at Sea type. I'm happy with any color so long as it's machinery gray. But it's your machine. Paint it whatever color makes you happy. One nice thing about paint, unlike a cutting torch, is that you can always change the color. ;)
 

wa5cab

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#35
True. But very few of the machines that most of us prefer have decent or even any factory paint left. ;)
 

Mr Mike

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#36
Ok Boys and Girls, The lathe bed is going in for its 2nd and hopefully final bath. Just the bed - I'd like to get all remaining paint and rust off.
I learned allot my first run through and expect this run to go much smother.

I used a level spoon full of Sodium Carbonate this time and, all is well with just over 3 amps of current flowing.
Now that the amps are in check I'll test it with my volt meter in shunt mode to see just how accurate the clamp ons are.

LatheBedBath2.jpg
 
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Mr Mike

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#37
If they bug you, try some WD-40 and Scotchbrite and they will usually shine up. Not much metal is removed with this so it won't affect the function of the lathe.
Thanks for the tip... Mike.
I had amazing results using Ultra Fine Scotchbright pads and cutting oil "windex gets to messy"..!
Took about an hour of scrubbing per side to get them all shinny - only thing left was minor rust pits.
Hopefully I did Little to No damage to the accuracy of the ways with all the scrubbing.

ScotchbrightWays.jpg
 
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mikey

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#38
Wow, that looks really, really good, Mike! Your lathe is going to be beautiful when you're done and you'll know every single nut and bolt of it. By the way, I like white, too, but my own lathe has a black bed and red carriage - this makes it go faster, you know. :)
 

Bob Korves

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#39
I have had excellent results using Evaporust followed by ultra fine (light gray) Scotchbrite. Not a great recipe for doing a lathe bed, though...
 
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Mr Mike

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#40
I have had excellent results using Evaporust followed by ultra fine (light gray) Scotchbrite. Not a great recipe for doing a lathe bed, though...
What do you mean "" Not a great recipe for doing a lathe bed, though... "" Did I do something that I should not have done...??
 

Mr Mike

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#41
Wow, that looks really, really good, Mike! Your lathe is going to be beautiful when you're done and you'll know every single nut and bolt of it. By the way, I like white, too, but my own lathe has a black bed and red carriage - this makes it go faster, you know. :)
So you have one of them sports lathe..? Is it fast and pretty..?
 

mikey

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So you have one of them sports lathe..? Is it fast and pretty..?
Yeah, it's the Emco Super 11 CD - black and red and very pretty. Well, at least it is to me. Austrian-built like a Swiss watch, they run as good as they look.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#43
What do you mean "" Not a great recipe for doing a lathe bed, though... "" Did I do something that I should not have done...??
Well the scotch bright pads are abrasive by nature, which means scrubing the ways induces wear that reduces the accuracy of the ways, which in turn causes unwanted taper and variation in your dialed in depth of cut in when turning work. Most lathes of that era came out of the factory with something like .0005" or less of variation along the bed. Soooo, anything we do that contributes to wear, generally we want to avoid. The best approach is to use no abrasive pad whatsoever ever. Just wipe the ways down with Way Oil and a soft lint free rag. The way oil and rag will lift any foreign matter, including super fine metal shavings/dust. These show up as grey streaks on the rag. When you get no grey streaks on a clean part of the rag, you know the ways are clean. (This grey matter is a combination of minute metal scrapings scrubbed off the ways during contact with the cross slide, flash rust, dirt and dust floating in the air, and assorted small debris from making chips. basically sort of a powdered iron and steel slurry mixed with way oil. This stuff acts as an abrasive - grinding away at the accuracy of the flats and V surfaces of your ways as you move the cross slide back and forth. So getting rid of it now, AND each time you turn on your machine helps preserve the accuracy of your machine.)

Anyway, as you start rebuilding, here's a way to assess the condition of your ways. Sort of a first step...

Find (or borrow) a good straight edge and lay it atop your lathe bed. Turn off the lights in the shop and put a flashlight behind the straightedge. Look for any slivers of light between the straightedge and the ways. Heavily worn lathes will have measurable gap between the straight edge and the bed. Two of my lathes have really minimal wear - .003 to .005" -great for a hobbyist! One old, big iron machine, used as a production machine for the Canadian navy for 35 years, has as much as .018" gap, which causes noticable taper problems when I turn long work, such as axles.

So, All lathes have wear. It's unavoidable. So don't panic if you see a gap. Just stick a feeler gauge through the gap to find out how much wear you have and how much extent along the bed. You may be able to see a flash of blue, maybe green streak of light at the end of the gap. That is the beginning of any wear induced curvature in your ways. Finding that will help you determine what part of the lathe has seen wear- and help youmcompensate when leveling the lathe after you have it reassembled. BTW, wear is usually the worse right around the front of the chuck on the Forward left hand side of the bed -closest to where the operator normally stands.

Be interterested to know what you find out.

Glenn
 
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Mr Mike

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#44
Well the scotch bright pads are abrasive by nature, which means scrubing the ways induces wear that reduces the accuracy of the ways, which in turn causes unwanted taper and variation in your dialed in depth of cut in when turning work. Most lathes of that era came out of the factory with something like .0005" or less of variation along the bed. Soooo, anything we do that contributes to wear, generally we want to avoid. The best approach is to use no abrasive pad whatsoever ever. Just wipe the ways down with Way Oil and a soft lint free rag. The way oil and rag will lift any foreign matter, including super fine metal shavings/dust. These show up as grey streaks on the rag. When you get no grey streaks on a clean part of the rag, you know the ways are clean. (This grey matter is a combination of minute metal scrapings scrubbed off the ways during contact with the cross slide, flash rust, dirt and dust floating in the air, and assorted small debris from making chips. basically sort of a powdered iron and steel slurry mixed with way oil. This stuff acts as an abrasive - grinding away at the accuracy of the flats and V surfaces of your ways as you move the cross slide back and forth. So getting rid of it now, AND each time you turn on your machine helps preserve the accuracy of your machine.)

Anyway, as you start rebuilding, here's a way to assess the condition of your ways. Sort of a first step...

Find (or borrow) a good straight edge and lay it atop your lathe bed. Turn off the lights in the shop and put a flashlight behind the straightedge. Look for any slivers of light between the straightedge and the ways. Heavily worn lathes will have measurable gap between the straight edge and the bed. Two of my lathes have really minimal wear - .003 to .005" -great for a hobbyist! One old, big iron machine, used as a production machine for the Canadian navy for 35 years, has as much as .018" gap, which causes noticable taper problems when I turn long work, such as axles.

So, All lathes have wear. It's unavoidable. So don't panic if you see a gap. Just stick a feeler gauge through the gap to find out how much wear you have and how much extent along the bed. You may be able to see a flash of blue, maybe green streak of light at the end of the gap. That is the beginning of any wear induced curvature in your ways. Finding that will help you determine what part of the lathe has seen wear- and help youmcompensate when leveling the lathe after you have it reassembled. BTW, wear is usually the worse right around the front of the chuck on the Forward left hand side of the bed -closest to where the operator normally stands.

Be interterested to know what you find out.

Glenn
Thanks you sir for sharing your knowledge on this subject.. I'm brand spanking new to the lathe world - where might I get a 48" straight edge that is dead on straight.? And how does one check to make sure the straight edge is straight before its used as a true gauge.
 

wa5cab

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#45
Assuming that the straight edge is a good one and not off of the $2.99 bargain table at the auto parts store, set it on the bed with the lights out and the flashlight behind and see what you get. Then turn it over and check again. If it isn't straight, the two sight pictures won't be the same.
 

Mr Mike

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Yeah, it's the Emco Super 11 CD - black and red and very pretty. Well, at least it is to me. Austrian-built like a Swiss watch, they run as good as they look.
I looked up the lathe its White, Black and Red.. Nice little sports car you have there.! Lots of buttons - I like Buttons.
 

Mr Mike

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#47
Assuming that the straight edge is a good one and not off of the $2.99 bargain table at the auto parts store, set it on the bed with the lights out and the flashlight behind and see what you get. Then turn it over and check again. If it isn't straight, the two sight pictures won't be the same.
Hello my good man...
The big question is, don't you first have to verify that the strait edge is strait.. Is there a preferred method for doing that..

I don't think it would be wise to just assume a strait edge is strait.. Unless I'm missing something here, I have had many instances where the tool I was using as a gauge to test another device was out of calibration. Just recently while doing this project I had to use a digital caliper to determine when I had cut my Rebar bolts to exactly .24 inch. My super accurate caliper on occasion would add .01 which cause me to pull it from the chuck after cutting off to much...

Thanks Mike.
 
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Bob Korves

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#48
What do you mean "" Not a great recipe for doing a lathe bed, though... "" Did I do something that I should not have done...??
Evaporust is $20+ per gallon. Though it works really well, buying enough to do a lathe bed is a large investment, at least for a cheapskate like me. I think electrolysis is the way to go with bigger chunks of metal that need to look really nice when done.
 

Bob Korves

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#49
Well the scotch bright pads are abrasive by nature, which means scrubing the ways induces wear that reduces the accuracy of the ways, which in turn causes unwanted taper and variation in your dialed in depth of cut in when turning work.
Yes, the light gray super fine Scotchbrite pads are abrasive. but barely so. You would need to scrub for a LONG time to remove enough metal to measure. Using one helps to remove the stains and blend in the surface finish of the ways, so it looks better. It also feels much smoother and less gritty afterwards, so some of what it removes probably needs to be gone. The down side is that it is an abrasive, so any left on the bed after polishing will keep working on and on, so it must be really well removed after using it. I only think of this sort of approach, of using any abrasive on the lathe bed, as a final polish for a restoration project, and only using it by hand, not power. I would certainly not use it for ongoing maintenance or regular cleaning use.
 

Glenn Brooks

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#50
Hello my good man...
The big question is, don't you first have to verify that the strait edge is strait.. Is there a preferred method for doing that..
.
Is a straight edge, straight? Ahh, now we jump into the deep and the arcane! Depends on how level is the surface you use to measure the edge. And the precision of the instrument you measure the surface. Metrology is a subject approaching philosophy and way beyound my meager knowledge. Actually there is a section on this forum that has several interesting discussions about this.

However there are some practical methods. Robert,above, posted a very good method to verify straightness. Usually you do this three times, with three different locations on the same reference surface, then average the three. You could also use a granite surface plate. Even a large square of plate glass will do. Precision straight edges are large, heavy, reinforced and very expensive instruments - in the realm of thousands of dollars. Delivered with an inspection certificate guareeteeing variation in the edge in the area of tenths or less - ten thousands of an inch. One must hang these vertically to insure the metal doesn't take a set and throw off the edge. So not generally available at a decent price.

Personally for a quick check i have used my aluminium carpenters rule - which I have found to be surprisingly 'straight'. Stainless 18" drafting rulers are often pretty good. You can measure deviation of what ever straightedges you might have around the shop, with feeler gauges, mark location of the variance on the device with a marking pen and subtract from your way measurements - gives you a reasonable assessment in thousands. For me, good enuf. I don't worrry much about nano measurements.

As to where to find a decent straight edge. you could check eBay. I've seen a lot of 'surplus' high quality metrology instruments coming out of Russian - old soviet block countries - for cheap. Apparently old time socialist party machinists turn out to be pretty good entrepreneurs!

Glenn
 
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Mr Mike

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#51
Evaporust is $20+ per gallon. Though it works really well, buying enough to do a lathe bed is a large investment, at least for a cheapskate like me. I think electrolysis is the way to go with bigger chunks of metal that need to look really nice when done.
Thanks Bob, we are pretty much on the same page here then, thought you were saying my using Scotchbrite pads was a big no no...
When I start doing the smaller parts like Handles and Nuts and Bolts ill test out the Evaporust and compare, Right now I'm having way to much fun with the Electrolysis though.. so all big parts are going in the tank :)
 
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Mr Mike

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#52
Is a straight edge, straight? Ahh, now we jump into the deep and the arcane! Depends on how level is the surface you use to measure the edge. And the precision of the instrument you measure the surface. Metrology is a subject approaching philosophy and way beyound my meager knowledge. Actually there is a section on this forum that has several interesting discussions about this.

However there are some practical methods. Robert,above, posted a very good method to verify straightness. Usually you do this three times, with three different locations on the same reference surface, then average the three. You could also use a granite surface plate. Even a large square of plate glass will do. Precision straight edges are large, heavy, reinforced and very expensive instruments - in the realm of thousands of dollars. Delivered with an inspection certificate guareeteeing variation in the edge in the area of tenths or less - ten thousands of an inch. One must hang these vertically to insure the metal doesn't take a set and throw off the edge. So not generally available at a decent price.

Personally for a quick check i have used my aluminium carpenters rule - which I have found to be surprisingly 'straight'. Stainless 18" drafting rulers are often pretty good. You can measure deviation of what ever straightedges you might have around the shop, with feeler gauges, mark location of the variance on the device with a marking pen and subtract from your way measurements - gives you a reasonable assessment in thousands. For me, good enuf. I don't worrry much about nano measurements.

As to where to find a decent straight edge. you could check eBay. I've seen a lot of 'surplus' high quality metrology instruments coming out of Russian - old soviet block countries - for cheap. Apparently old time socialist party machinists turn out to be pretty good entrepreneurs!

Glenn
Hi Glenn, thanks for your input.!
I think for my first real learning lathe this logan 1875 will be more a learning tool / stepping stone if you will, so I'm not real worried about perfection over education this lathe has to offer, If its off a bit no biggie...

I'm not doing this restoration to to end up with a best in class lathe, It's more to learn proper procedures of what works or doesn't work, the hows and whys.. something to learn basic machining from the ground up.. Care and maintenance, If I get lucky and that usually does't happen, I hope to end up with a clean usable tool, I would expect I will make all the usual beginner mistakes and damage the lathe over time too, But more important is really just having some fun.

I could have jumped in with both feet an bought a nice new lathe, but then it would just be sitting in a corner outside with me wondering what to do with it.. and missed the opportunity to learn Electrolysis and other learning aids..

Thanks again Mike..
 
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Bob Korves

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#53
Thanks Bob, we are pretty much on the same page here then, thought you were saying my using Scotchbrite pads was a big no no...
When I start doing the smaller parts like Handles and Nuts and Bolts ill test out the Evaporust and compare, Right now I'm having way to much fun with the Electrolysis thou.. so all big parts are going in the tank :)
Once you have electrolysis going well, you might as well keep using it as long as it is doing a good job for you. Evaporust is easier, and less messy, but either will do a good job on most projects. Evaporust is likely more expensive overall than electrolysis if you are doing both correctly. On smaller parts the differences are probably negligible cost wise.
 

Mr Mike

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#54
Once you have electrolysis going well, you might as well keep using it as long as it is doing a good job for you. Evaporust is easier, and less messy, but either will do a good job on most projects. Evaporust is likely more expensive overall than electrolysis if you are doing both correctly. On smaller parts the differences are probably negligible cost wise.
Hi Bob.. You are absolutely right, Electrolysis is very messy and I suspect that Evapo-Rust has allot lest cleanup afterwards, correct me if I'm wrong here - unlike electrolysis which removes Rust, Oils and Paint. Evapo-Rust will not remove Oils or Paint from the part, that means I would have to go through more steps.

This is the second bath the lathe bed took, as you can see all the blue paint that was left from the last bath is now gone from the center of the bed, which quickly flash rusted. No big deal it wipes right off..
However I have another electrolysis tip: Do Not set your bed in upside down or the Ways towards the bottom. I had little marks all over the ways from bubbles that couldn't escape from under the bed Ways. It took an additional hour to Re-Scotch bright the ways to remove the marks.

It would also probably be wise to not put parts in that capture and hold the gases because it will displace the water leaving the part in an uncleaned and marked condition.

All in all the bed came out of the second bath great, just had to wipe off the flash rust and clean the bubble marks off the ways, Its now ready to finish. The picture below shows flash rust on the bed just after being pulled from the bath, rinsed and dried. Note: the bed supports didn't get a second bath yet, They will but you can see the difference between the two.

FlashRust.jpg
LatheBath2.jpg
 
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Bob Korves

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#55
I have not done any electrolysis, but have watched it on YouTube, so I have a good idea how it goes. Evaporust cannot work well on rust that has oil or grease on it. There is a small amount of surfactant (detergent) in Evaporust so it gets into small places better, but it really is much better if all the grease and oil is removed, along with using a scratch brush or rotary brush on any loose rust, before dunking. Evaporust works by a chelating agent that attacks only the rust, and when the chelating agent is used up, the Evaporust is dead. So, the less total rust the better with Evaporust. The good thing about Evaporust, and electrolysis when used correctly, is that they do not attack good metal at all, not causing any etching or frosting of the good metal.
 

Mr Mike

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As suggested in some other forum post, I went paint shopping today at the PPG store. I explained briefly to the sales gal what I was up to and she stopped me and called the manager up. He was very knowledgeable and I've got to tell ya.. I was a hit at the paint place, I explained to him what I'm trying to do - that I am restoring an old lathe. He gave me 3 options that I could use, explaining all their benefits.

I told him that PPG products has had some good reviews on the HM and PM forums, I told him I wanted to go with a Gloss Dark Grey Oil Base for the base and chip pan, and that I needed a Gloss and low luster White Oil base for the lathe, I also stated that I was kinda interested in their 2 part water based epoxy, He said thats not a good choice If I'm down to bare metal because there is a chance it will flash rust under the coating and peel off down the road.. He then said that proper preparation would be key to a Oil resistant and long lasting paint job, I said you have no idea...

He said to make sure I got it sanded, or have it soda blasted to get everything down to bare metal to remove any Rust, old Primer & Paint and then give it a few good washings with denatured alcohol to pull out any oils from the Lathe Assembly. I told him that I had used electrolysis to do all that, He gave me a very inquisitive look - So I pulled out my phone and showed him my photos... He was super impressed with what I had done and then stated that was allot of caustic mix, and starting asking all kinds of questions. For the next 20 minutes I was no longer a customer that had questions about paint - I was the interesting guy that could answer all his questions because he wanted to do something similar.

After that chat was all cleared up - he started to give me some tips and tricks and suggestions on spraying vs brushing and then gave me some free spray primer to try, and tried to give me some other paint to test out and some color charts, when all was said and done I walk out of there feeling like a king with all the attention I was getting, he even ordered the Low luster they didn't have in stock from another store and will have my order ready tomorrow.

Was a fun day at the paint store, who would have thought getting a lathe would be this entertaining.
 

mikey

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#57
Next time you talk to your buddy at the paint store, ask him what he thinks of spraying on a 50:50 mix of Phosphoric Acid and water onto metal that has just come out of an electrolytic bath. Stops all flash rust, etches the metal and can be painted over. Been using it for years and never had an issue with paint lifting and such but he's the paint expert and I would defer to him.
 

Mr Mike

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Hello Mike..
Um - Questions..? does the 50:50 etch the bed ways too..? how do you neutralize the acid when your done..? do you use water based primers and topcoat..? Thanks Ill ask your question when I go get my paint..
I don't know how it is for you guys but normally when I go to the paint store and start asking questions, I usually get the Deer looking in the headlight expression from the people behind the counter, He is not my buddy I just had a good day at the paint store which is unusual.
 

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Hello Mike..
Um - Questions..? does the 50:50 etch the bed ways too..? how do you neutralize the acid when your done..? do you use water based primers and topcoat..? Thanks Ill ask your question when I go get my paint..
I don't know how it is for you guys but normally when I go to the paint store and start asking questions, I usually get the Deer looking in the headlight expression from the people behind the counter, He is not my buddy I just had a good day at the paint store which is unusual.
I'm actually a painter by trade and yes the people behind the counter give me quear looks often and refer me to the paint rep.

Look into adding driers if just oil based enamel or it'll take weeks to go hard.. I used terabine just don't use too much or the paint will crack and loose sheen in a few months.

I soaked my lathe with rags coverd in petrol. . . Not very PC but removed the oil.

+1 on the spraying.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 

Mr Mike

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I'm actually a painter by trade and yes the people behind the counter give me quear looks often and refer me to the paint rep.

Look into adding driers if just oil based enamel or it'll take weeks to go hard.. I used terabine just don't use too much or the paint will crack and loose sheen in a few months.

I soaked my lathe with rags coverd in petrol. . . Not very PC but removed the oil.

+1 on the spraying.

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Hey Laytonnz..
I was thinking of adding a hardener to the oil based paint but I've never shot Oil ( well except Rattle Cans of Rust-oleum ) only Water based products. So I'm real worried about using my Compressor Hvlp Gun to spray it, Actually I'm thinking about buying the hand held Graco TrueCoat 360 airless.. because I don't have an air Desiccant filter for my Hvlp to stop moisture. and my regular airless Is a full size so it takes a Qrt just to fill the hose.. What do you recommend..?
 
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