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Bronze powder Epoxy slurry

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cathead

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#1
I'm wondering if anyone has experimented with adding bronze to JB-Weld or similar and applied it to the worn
surfaces of a saddle or possibly some other worn area.
One would have to really get the surfaces clean with solvents and rough it up I suppose so it would stay in place. Then scrape it to fit.
 

Bob Korves

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#2
I would first attempt scraping some of the dried mix on some cleaned up, old and oily scrap iron, to see how it scrapes, how it spots in, and if it flakes off where it tapers into the bare ways. "A good test is better than 1000 'expert' opinions." You would also learn how best to install it and rough it in while practicing on a test piece.

Edit: Don't ruin your Monarch or Springfield doing an experiment...
 

tweinke

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#3
Might be interesting to try. Do you think JB weld gets hard enough to work?
 

markba633csi

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#4
I just made some filled JB weld with some steel filings. It's pretty darn hard. Have to cure it with heat (light bulb) to get best results.
Mark S.
 

Tozguy

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#5
I'd have more confidence in a Loctite product for this approach. The JB weld jobs I have done were not for moving parts.
 

cathead

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#6
I'm having second thoughts on using JB-Weld as a basis for a moving surface. I see it contains some iron dust according
to the MSDS sheets. A clear epoxy would be better since it would not have unwanted abrasives. Another possibility might
be to use zinc powder as it has a very low coefficient of friction in oil. I even have some of that in a jar. You are right Bob to
do the experimenting on a test piece.
 

Bob Korves

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#7
Why not use Rulon, Moglice, or some other material designed for the job?
 

cathead

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#8
Why not use Rulon, Moglice, or some other material designed for the job?
Well, that has crossed my mind too. As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works. If no one ever tries this,
we won't know will we? I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.
 

Bob Korves

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#9
Well, that has crossed my mind too. As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works. If no one ever tries this,
we won't know will we? I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.
Indeed, the process is expensive, and the materials cannot be all that special...
 

vtcnc

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#10
Do a Google search for Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding. Looks like putties and pourable liquid epoxies.
 

cathead

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#11
Do a Google search for Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding. Looks like putties and pourable liquid epoxies.
Thanks for posting Bryan. This Fixmaster stuff contains iron powder so probably not as good as using bronze or zinc for a sliding
surface. It looks like I am going to have to mix up my own formula.
 

cathead

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#14
Now that's the spirit! Please share the recipe and results!
I think the spirit is suffering in this country. We are a country of texters and cell phone aficionados except for the
few us us who spend time in the shop and actually accomplish something. So hats off to all the doers in the world.
Nobody makes gun powder out of pigeon krap any more or make their own soap. Just order stuff on your smart fone
and have FedEx deliver it to your door. Hey, that was fun! I'm done with my rant now......:grin:
 

woodchucker

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#15
I don't know why you need to fill. It must be really bad. But I would bet a braze would be way better than epoxy. Silicone bronze maybe. The shaping after is the only issue. Your going to have to use die/mold making files to get into some spots.
 

4gsr

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#16
The problems with bronze fillers or even nickel-silver brazing up a surface, is it very hard to scrape and get good consistent markings. Brass or bronze is easier than nickel-silver is to scrape, both have issues though. Myself, if the surfaces have deep gouges or like under the saddle on the lathe, heavy wear, I would suggest Moglice or the Devcon product over any special "brew" for filling in or building up surfaces.

As for glue in strips like Rulon or Tercite, Think about Micarta. That's what I grew up using on some of the machine rebuilds I worked on. Lot cheaper, money wise!

Ken
 

cathead

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#17
The problems with bronze fillers or even nickel-silver brazing up a surface, is it very hard to scrape and get good consistent markings. Brass or bronze is easier than nickel-silver is to scrape, both have issues though. Myself, if the surfaces have deep gouges or like under the saddle on the lathe, heavy wear, I would suggest Moglice or the Devcon product over any special "brew" for filling in or building up surfaces.

As for glue in strips like Rulon or Tercite, Think about Micarta. That's what I grew up using on some of the machine rebuilds I worked on. Lot cheaper, money wise!

Ken
I like that. I will do some studying on Micarta. Thanks, Ken.
 

cathead

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#18
I don't know why you need to fill. It must be really bad. But I would bet a braze would be way better than epoxy. Silicone bronze maybe. The shaping after is the only issue. Your going to have to use die/mold making files to get into some spots.
There is about 15 thousandths wear on the bed by the head stock so I figure the saddle would have about that much wear as well.
I don't know if there is anyway to measure the wear on the saddle. I guess there might be but I won't know until I rip it apart and
see what I can see...
 

vtcnc

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#19
I think the spirit is suffering in this country. We are a country of texters and cell phone aficionados except for the
few us us who spend time in the shop and actually accomplish something. So hats off to all the doers in the world.
Nobody makes gun powder out of pigeon krap any more or make their own soap. Just order stuff on your smart fone
and have FedEx deliver it to your door. Hey, that was fun! I'm done with my rant now......:grin:
Now I get where you are coming from...but I'm also firm believer in not reinventing the wheel! I did a little more research on the Devcon website tonight, looks like they have another product that is designed for high wear resistance and low friction = they specifically call out lathe machine beds in the product description. If you come up with a home brew recipe for the equivalent of this, I'm all ears!

Here is the link: Devcon Wear Resistant Putty (WR-2)

Sorry I didn't find it earlier!
 

TakeDeadAim

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#20
Well, that has crossed my mind too. As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works. If no one ever tries this,
we won't know will we? I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.
It has been tried and failed. Moglice is the product with which I have seen the best success provided the Mfg. instruction are followed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

cathead

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#21
Thank you all for weighing in on the subject. I'm sure that if I have to do some fill in work on the saddle that there are
several ways to go about it successfully. I'm somewhat concerned about saddle wear because I see the rack has been
shimmed. I have had the saddle off a few years ago and it isn't seriously grooved so maybe could just scrape it flat and
do some flaking. I'm certainly not an expert on this subject and realize that some of you are well experienced at it.
I can see that this refurbishment project will take a while. If I scrape and flake, will it matter if the saddle ends up .030 inch
lower than it was in new condition? My thought is that it probably wouldn't matter as long as I get the ways straight and
saddle fitting properly. Is there a good reason to fill in with one of these surfacing materials so the saddle is raised back up
to where it was when new? Will it have better sliding properties? It's a pretty old lathe so not expecting perfection, I just
want to make improvements where reasonably possible.

Here's a photo of the Springfield Ideal Lathe, vintage probably 1930's I would guess...
 

vtcnc

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#22
It has been tried and failed. Moglice is the product with which I have seen the best success provided the Mfg. instruction are followed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Was taking a look at a thread on another forum and the consensus over there is the same: Moglice seems to be the preferred material in the work of machine tool rebuilding.
 

4gsr

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#23
cathead,

There is nothing wrong with re scraping or machining the bed straight and flat again and likewise with the saddle. As long as you realize you have to drop the rack and leadscrew and feed rod to compensate for the materials removed from each. And I believe you have already mentioned that. There are several articles out there on applying and the use of Moglice on the saddle and other types of slides. Go here for more details on Moglice

http://www.moglice.com/

Here is my thread on the application and use of Moglice.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...tion/application-moglice-saddle-lathe-305535/

If you have time to read up on Moglice, there are 22 pages of results using the word "Moglice" on their site. Wish we had that much information available to us here on our site.

Ken
 

cathead

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#24
cathead,

There is nothing wrong with re scraping or machining the bed straight and flat again and likewise with the saddle. As long as you realize you have to drop the rack and leadscrew and feed rod to compensate for the materials removed from each. And I believe you have already mentioned that. There are several articles out there on applying and the use of Moglice on the saddle and other types of slides. Go here for more details on Moglice

http://www.moglice.com/

Here is my thread on the application and use of Moglice.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...tion/application-moglice-saddle-lathe-305535/

If you have time to read up on Moglice, there are 22 pages of results using the word "Moglice" on their site. Wish we had that much information available to us here on our site.

Ken

OK, I think I have a fairly good understanding now. I will research"Moglice". Thanks Ken.
 

Douglasr

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#25
Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out
 

Bob Korves

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#26
Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out
I looked at their site and got more and more excited, until I found that the smallest size sold is 1 kg (2.2 lb.) and ~$100.00. I would need to be a cat and have nine lives for that to make sense, for me. Your mileage may vary...
 

Highsider

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#27
Whatever product one chooses for this kind of operation, grab a die grinder and undercut the edges of the low spot right out to the edges of the good surface. It's necessary to avoid problems with a feather edge and the fill will be much more stable.
 

Ebel440

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#28
There's a home made version of moglice I found. Think it was epoxy resin powdered bronze,graphite, aluminum, some type of molybdenum and zeospheres? I think the zeospheres are some type of epoxy filler. Possibly like glass microballons which I wouldn't think would be a good idea. Could try googling" do it yourself moglice" I thinks that's what I searched.
 

cathead

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#29
There's a home made version of moglice I found. Think it was epoxy resin powdered bronze,graphite, aluminum, some type of molybdenum and zeospheres? I think the zeospheres are some type of epoxy filler. Possibly like glass microballons which I wouldn't think would be a good idea. Could try googling" do it yourself moglice" I thinks that's what I searched.
Yes, Thanks. I will check into that. Today I took the free play out of my cross feed by pouring molten leaded babbitt into
cross feed screw threads. It took away about 80% of the lost motion at least for now. I expect I will have to make further repairs
eventually, probably a Moglice repair...
 

Ebel440

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#30
I actually just looked it up again and had better results using "homemade moglice"seems I'd forgotten the recipe included powdered Teflon and some use hexagonal boron nitride
 
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