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Bronze powder Epoxy slurry

Discussion in 'MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING' started by cathead, Feb 14, 2017.

  1. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    I'm wondering if anyone has experimented with adding bronze to JB-Weld or similar and applied it to the worn
    surfaces of a saddle or possibly some other worn area.
    One would have to really get the surfaces clean with solvents and rough it up I suppose so it would stay in place. Then scrape it to fit.
     
  2. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I would first attempt scraping some of the dried mix on some cleaned up, old and oily scrap iron, to see how it scrapes, how it spots in, and if it flakes off where it tapers into the bare ways. "A good test is better than 1000 'expert' opinions." You would also learn how best to install it and rough it in while practicing on a test piece.

    Edit: Don't ruin your Monarch or Springfield doing an experiment...
     
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  3. tweinke

    tweinke United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Might be interesting to try. Do you think JB weld gets hard enough to work?
     
  4. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    I just made some filled JB weld with some steel filings. It's pretty darn hard. Have to cure it with heat (light bulb) to get best results.
    Mark S.
     
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  5. Tozguy

    Tozguy Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'd have more confidence in a Loctite product for this approach. The JB weld jobs I have done were not for moving parts.
     
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  6. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    I'm having second thoughts on using JB-Weld as a basis for a moving surface. I see it contains some iron dust according
    to the MSDS sheets. A clear epoxy would be better since it would not have unwanted abrasives. Another possibility might
    be to use zinc powder as it has a very low coefficient of friction in oil. I even have some of that in a jar. You are right Bob to
    do the experimenting on a test piece.
     
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  7. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Why not use Rulon, Moglice, or some other material designed for the job?
     
  8. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    Well, that has crossed my mind too. As an experiment, it would be fun to try and see how well it works. If no one ever tries this,
    we won't know will we? I was looking at Turcite but it gets expensive to buy all the stuff you need for that process.
     
  9. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Indeed, the process is expensive, and the materials cannot be all that special...
     
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  10. vtcnc

    vtcnc H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Do a Google search for Loctite Fixmaster Metal Rebuilding. Looks like putties and pourable liquid epoxies.
     
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  11. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    Thanks for posting Bryan. This Fixmaster stuff contains iron powder so probably not as good as using bronze or zinc for a sliding
    surface. It looks like I am going to have to mix up my own formula.
     
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  12. vtcnc

    vtcnc H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Now that's the spirit! Please share the recipe and results!
     
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  13. vtcnc

    vtcnc H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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  14. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    I think the spirit is suffering in this country. We are a country of texters and cell phone aficionados except for the
    few us us who spend time in the shop and actually accomplish something. So hats off to all the doers in the world.
    Nobody makes gun powder out of pigeon krap any more or make their own soap. Just order stuff on your smart fone
    and have FedEx deliver it to your door. Hey, that was fun! I'm done with my rant now......:grin:
     
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  15. woochucker

    woochucker United States Active Member Active Member

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    I don't know why you need to fill. It must be really bad. But I would bet a braze would be way better than epoxy. Silicone bronze maybe. The shaping after is the only issue. Your going to have to use die/mold making files to get into some spots.
     
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  16. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The problems with bronze fillers or even nickel-silver brazing up a surface, is it very hard to scrape and get good consistent markings. Brass or bronze is easier than nickel-silver is to scrape, both have issues though. Myself, if the surfaces have deep gouges or like under the saddle on the lathe, heavy wear, I would suggest Moglice or the Devcon product over any special "brew" for filling in or building up surfaces.

    As for glue in strips like Rulon or Tercite, Think about Micarta. That's what I grew up using on some of the machine rebuilds I worked on. Lot cheaper, money wise!

    Ken
     
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  17. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    I like that. I will do some studying on Micarta. Thanks, Ken.
     
  18. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    There is about 15 thousandths wear on the bed by the head stock so I figure the saddle would have about that much wear as well.
    I don't know if there is anyway to measure the wear on the saddle. I guess there might be but I won't know until I rip it apart and
    see what I can see...
     
  19. vtcnc

    vtcnc H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Now I get where you are coming from...but I'm also firm believer in not reinventing the wheel! I did a little more research on the Devcon website tonight, looks like they have another product that is designed for high wear resistance and low friction = they specifically call out lathe machine beds in the product description. If you come up with a home brew recipe for the equivalent of this, I'm all ears!

    Here is the link: Devcon Wear Resistant Putty (WR-2)

    Sorry I didn't find it earlier!
     
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  20. TakeDeadAim

    TakeDeadAim H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It has been tried and failed. Moglice is the product with which I have seen the best success provided the Mfg. instruction are followed


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  21. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    Thank you all for weighing in on the subject. I'm sure that if I have to do some fill in work on the saddle that there are
    several ways to go about it successfully. I'm somewhat concerned about saddle wear because I see the rack has been
    shimmed. I have had the saddle off a few years ago and it isn't seriously grooved so maybe could just scrape it flat and
    do some flaking. I'm certainly not an expert on this subject and realize that some of you are well experienced at it.
    I can see that this refurbishment project will take a while. If I scrape and flake, will it matter if the saddle ends up .030 inch
    lower than it was in new condition? My thought is that it probably wouldn't matter as long as I get the ways straight and
    saddle fitting properly. Is there a good reason to fill in with one of these surfacing materials so the saddle is raised back up
    to where it was when new? Will it have better sliding properties? It's a pretty old lathe so not expecting perfection, I just
    want to make improvements where reasonably possible.
    Here's a photo of the Springfield Ideal Lathe, vintage probably 1930's I would guess...
     
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  22. vtcnc

    vtcnc H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Was taking a look at a thread on another forum and the consensus over there is the same: Moglice seems to be the preferred material in the work of machine tool rebuilding.
     
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  23. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    cathead,

    There is nothing wrong with re scraping or machining the bed straight and flat again and likewise with the saddle. As long as you realize you have to drop the rack and leadscrew and feed rod to compensate for the materials removed from each. And I believe you have already mentioned that. There are several articles out there on applying and the use of Moglice on the saddle and other types of slides. Go here for more details on Moglice

    http://www.moglice.com/

    Here is my thread on the application and use of Moglice.

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...tion/application-moglice-saddle-lathe-305535/

    If you have time to read up on Moglice, there are 22 pages of results using the word "Moglice" on their site. Wish we had that much information available to us here on our site.

    Ken
     
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  24. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    OK, I think I have a fairly good understanding now. I will research"Moglice". Thanks Ken.
     
  25. Douglasr

    Douglasr Active User Active Member

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    Look up Belzona supermetal. We use it at work to fill imperfections before lathe and or mill work. Much like JBweld on steroids! Hard as a rock when cured. Check it out
     
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  26. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I looked at their site and got more and more excited, until I found that the smallest size sold is 1 kg (2.2 lb.) and ~$100.00. I would need to be a cat and have nine lives for that to make sense, for me. Your mileage may vary...
     
  27. Highsider

    Highsider United States Active Member Active Member

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    Whatever product one chooses for this kind of operation, grab a die grinder and undercut the edges of the low spot right out to the edges of the good surface. It's necessary to avoid problems with a feather edge and the fill will be much more stable.
     
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  28. Ebel440

    Ebel440 United States Active User Active Member

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    There's a home made version of moglice I found. Think it was epoxy resin powdered bronze,graphite, aluminum, some type of molybdenum and zeospheres? I think the zeospheres are some type of epoxy filler. Possibly like glass microballons which I wouldn't think would be a good idea. Could try googling" do it yourself moglice" I thinks that's what I searched.
     
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  29. cathead

    cathead Active User Active Member

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    Yes, Thanks. I will check into that. Today I took the free play out of my cross feed by pouring molten leaded babbitt into
    cross feed screw threads. It took away about 80% of the lost motion at least for now. I expect I will have to make further repairs
    eventually, probably a Moglice repair...
     
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  30. Ebel440

    Ebel440 United States Active User Active Member

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    I actually just looked it up again and had better results using "homemade moglice"seems I'd forgotten the recipe included powdered Teflon and some use hexagonal boron nitride
     

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