X-Feed Rates on PM lathes

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B2
I will commend you on the amount of effort and passion you've put into this. But at the end of the day, in my case , on my lathe I can't change any of the ratios as its preset by the gears installed. So I can't see the value of knowing the exact ratio. I'll grant you its a good exercise in ratios, but again in my case no real value that I can see.
Thank you for the offer of the table, spread sheet, etc. but I'll have to decline. I'm sure others may find that information useful.
 
@aliva
Thank you, and I am sorry you have no way to change external gears. I understand you have declined the table offer. No Problem.

However, may I ask what model lathe you have and why you cannot change any of the gears. Is it simply because you have no extra gears or is it the feature of the lathe? If you can direct me to a manual for your lathe I would like to take a look at it. I have been looking at several lathe versions to see how much they differ and if they can be incorporated into my spread sheet easily. Usually the manuals are poorly written or incomplete and it is difficult without actually having the lathe to test. Norton gear boxes are easy to incorporate, but the gear box is much more straight forward than that of my lathe.

In addition to my PM1440GT I have an older South Bend 10K which I have had for several years and have enjoyed it a lot. It has a great Norton Gear box on it along with 7 factors of 2 .... so that it allows a large number of threads and feed rates, 10x7=70. However, I have no extra external gears so most metric threads have always been a poor approximation. At some point I may recondition it so that the X-feed works much better and then I might get a 127/120 exchange gear and a few other external gears. TBD.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Dave L.
 
@aliva
Thank you, and I am sorry you have no way to change external gears. I understand you have declined the table offer. No Problem.

However, may I ask what model lathe you have and why you cannot change any of the gears. Is it simply because you have no extra gears or is it the feature of the lathe? If you can direct me to a manual for your lathe I would like to take a look at it. I have been looking at several lathe versions to see how much they differ and if they can be incorporated into my spread sheet easily. Usually the manuals are poorly written or incomplete and it is difficult without actually having the lathe to test. Norton gear boxes are easy to incorporate, but the gear box is much more straight forward than that of my lathe.

In addition to my PM1440GT I have an older South Bend 10K which I have had for several years and have enjoyed it a lot. It has a great Norton Gear box on it along with 7 factors of 2 .... so that it allows a large number of threads and feed rates, 10x7=70. However, I have no extra external gears so most metric threads have always been a poor approximation. At some point I may recondition it so that the X-feed works much better and then I might get a 127/120 exchange gear and a few other external gears. TBD.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Dave L.
Dave,
I think he was referring to the apron gears, since those are fixed, the ratio between the longitudinal feed and cross feed is also fixed.
 
@Ischgl99

Thanks, maybe your are right!? None of us have much of any way to change the Apron gearing... or need to do so! Either way I am still interested to know what kind of lathe he has.

Are you interested in my spread sheet? At some point I will want a couple of people to check it for errors and to make suggestions to make it useful. I have already put your PM1340GT properties in to it. I do have a question however about the FEED settings. It is my understanding that the FEED rod turns no matter what position you have the gear box set to. Also, there is a rotating knob that has two positions, FEED or Lead screw. However, I doubt that it affects the feed bar. It probably only disengages the lead screw? So the FEED bar rotational rate is both a function of the two parts of the Norton gear box. IF so then the FEED bar rotational rate set has just as many rates as does the lead screw set?

Dave L.
 
Thanks, The apron gears look similar, but not the same tooth numbers as the PM1340/1440.
Dave L.
 
@Ischgl99

Thanks, maybe your are right!? None of us have much of any way to change the Apron gearing... or need to do so! Either way I am still interested to know what kind of lathe he has.

Are you interested in my spread sheet? At some point I will want a couple of people to check it for errors and to make suggestions to make it useful. I have already put your PM1340GT properties in to it. I do have a question however about the FEED settings. It is my understanding that the FEED rod turns no matter what position you have the gear box set to. Also, there is a rotating knob that has two positions, FEED or Lead screw. However, I doubt that it affects the feed bar. It probably only disengages the lead screw? So the FEED bar rotational rate is both a function of the two parts of the Norton gear box. IF so then the FEED bar rotational rate set has just as many rates as does the lead screw set?

Dave L.
I have the 1236T, but everything we are discussing is the same as the 1340GT.

The feed shaft and the leadscrew do not rotate at the same time, the selection nob selects feed, none, or screw cutting. There is a gear (#34) on shaft D of the attached drawing that slides to engage a corresponding gear on either the shaft for the leadscrew, or the feed screw.

The power transmission through the Norton gearbox goes from shaft C to shaft F through the lever for selections A-E, shaft F turns gears #5 and 6, that then drives the output shaft of the gearbox that has the gears for speed positions 1-8, and is controlled by the selection lever for positions 1-8. The shaft that carries the gears for 1-8 also has the output gear that drives the feed or leadscrew depending on the position of the output gear mentioned above.
 

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@Provincial
The Jet BDB-1340A lathe seems the same as mine, except the quick change gearbox has been modernized, while mine has the Norton gearbox.
After looking at the JET-BDB-1340A manual, ( I know your MM1340LB is different in that it has a Norton Gearbox, but that is an easy fix in my spreadsheet... if I know its values.) I think I figured out the FEED to X-FEED ratio and some other things. The main gear box is similar to my PM1440GT only in appearance, but I think I figured out the ratios for its operation. Also, the external gear list probably different from your machine. The apron gear diagram is more complex and has completely different gears than in the PM1340GT/PM1440GT. Furthermore the the cross feed gear tooth number is missing as is the TPI of its lead screw.

Never the less, I was able to fit these all together and I have not put it into my spread workbook. I have assumed that the cross feed gear tooth number and lead screw TPI (10) is the same as mine. When I assume this, amazingly, the ratio of Feed rate to cross feed rate is identical to mine! This is even though the gear teeth numbers are considerably different! I could hardly believe this. Anyway, the manual had a few feed and cross feed rates shown on the face plate and when you take the ratios there it varies substantially with few digits. One of them was way off compared to the others and by sort of averaging them it gave a ratio of 2.91. However, my analysis gave the same as the other PM lathes I mentioned above, which is 3.1354084....

If you want to send me the Norton fundamental TPI values (commonly the top row of TPI values in a lathe table) and the factor of two values you have on the name plate as well as complete list of the external gears that you have then I will put that in to the spread sheet as well. Then when I finally finish the thing and post it you will have it built in. If you would rather send me a photo of the plate on the lathe with the external gear list I can use that.

Dave L.
 
Dave L., Thanks for following up on this. Since I posted, I noticed that my apron feed gear train does not have the extra countershaft (identified as F in the Jet BDB-1340A parts manual), and the lack of that gear train means the rest of the gearing is much different. Also, my lead screw is 8 TPI, which could be different from the PM lathes. I discovered that my cross feed screw also has 8 TPI, and the cross feed dial is graduated for two times the travel (reduction in diameter of the work), hence it has 250 graduations.

I just checked the apron cross feed reduction ratio. For 10 turns of the feed shaft, the cross feed dial moves .370, or .037 per revolution, which is .0185 travel/revolution of the feed shaft. This should be .148 turns of the cross feed screw per revolution of the feed shaft. This could be off slightly, as I didn't have a precise reference point for rotating the feed shaft.

The gear train entering the Norton box breaks down to:
Spindle 50 tooth
Idler 26 tooth/21 tooth
Tumbler 50 tooth
Top change 40 tooth
Big Idler 127 tooth
Bottom Idler 40 tooth

I've attached photos of the Inch gear positions and the feed positions
I'll be out of the loop for about a week, starting Friday morning.

Jock
 

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@Provincial

Jock, I will take a look. Yes, the F shaft is an option and I do not find it being uses elsewhere either. So I have been ignoring it. I did not use it in my analysis of the JET machine either. The 1340's have an 8 TPI lead screw but the 1440 has a 4 TPI lead screw. Your name plate implies that your lead screw is 4.5TPI not 8 or 7. The more important issue is that for the FEED drive both machines use the FEED bar which only has a notch down the center, no threads unless you want to call this a "0 TPI" lead screw. I have been calling it the FEED Bar. Also important is that your cross feed is an 8TPI where has the other machines are 10TPI. Are you sure about this? From your plate you have 8 fundamental threads and 5 factors of two multiples, which is pretty standard. The PM1340 also has 8 and 5. But the fundamentals for the PM1340 are: 4, 4.5, 4.75, 5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, 7. Your machine is slightly different: 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 5.75 6, 6.5, 7 as it is missing the 4.75 but has a 5.75 instead.

I looked at the FEED rate table. I believe that if you use the first row of the TPI table in the following formula you will get the exact FEED rates:
(0.1005/(TPI#)*(4)). So if you use the exact number and take ratios x-feed rates you will find variations ranging from 2.809 to 3.071. Some simple observations: However if you only look at the TPI which are 4,5,5.75, and 6 you will find you get pretty good agreement at 2.903. That is not to say that this number is correct. It may just be a coincidence. However for TPI 5,5.75, and 6 your get exactly the same number each time: 2.903043478. However you will note I normalized these by the first feed rate of 0.1005/4. If instead you used the 5 TPI value, to do the normalization 0.0805/5 you find similar effects but the ratio of feed rate to x-feed rate changes a bit to 2.913043478. So who is to say which is correct. I cannot say for sure if this is different from what you measured or not. Maybe you can.

I am not for sure how to proceed, since when I look at the photos in the JET book the spindle and change gears to not appear as you described. they look considerably different, but it could be that they just have different gears mounted. Perhaps you could write this a bit differently for me telling me which gears touch the next gear when you are set up to get the 4 TPI thread. Please make the Spindle gear the last one (50T) in a string of touching gears. Or maybe a sketch of how they mesh. If there is an intermediate gear between only two then it has no effect 40-127-40 on the over all turns ratio as the two 40T gears turn at the same rate. . For example starting from the input to the gear box: 40 to 127 to 40 to 50 to 26 which is tied to 21 and then the 21 to 50 at the spindle? Or is it that the go 40 to 127 to 40 to 50 to 21 which it tied to 26 which touches the 50T spindle? So in the first case the ratios read: (40/127)*(127/40)*(40/50)*(50/21)*(26/50). We see that the over all ratio is simply (40/21)*(26/50) . i.e one turn of the shaft into the gear box results in (40/21)*(26/50) turns at the spindle or 0.8*(26/21)=0.9904. Where as the alternative yields (0.8*(21/26) = 0.64615.

Lastly you might count the length per tooth on the RACK. It turns out to be important. In the JET manual it says it is a 2mm thread so the length per tooth is just 2mm*Pi()=6.2832mm. This 2mm comes from the JET manual 2mm, 13T gear that is suppose to be engaged to the RACK. When I did mine I it seemed that the gear teeth repeated pretty well at 330mm with 70 teeth counted. 330/70=33/7=4.7143 ==> 1.5mm*pi()=4.712389mm.

I too am going to be out of the loop for several days starting tomorrow.
 
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