http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/some-pictures-of-the-pm-1228vf-lb.48583/Take a look at the PM1228vf-lb.
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Why no small high-quality lathes?
- Thread starter keithd
- Start date
The OP, Wreck and others raise many good points. I too wanted a good, small lathe and spent several years looking. A big part of that was educating myself in what a "good" little lathe would look like, and what trade offs would be necessary. I am sure the OP understands that you can't get everything in one package. He originally talked about going up to 11x24 and up to 1000# to 53" long. He also wants it to be new, and under $5000.
There are a bunch of things there that simply do not line up.
Things have really changed over the past several decades. There always has been and still is a whole category of machines that are built entirely to price, Keith doesn't want one of those (which I totally get). There is still a small market for machines which are build to a very good quality - obviously, with a small market the price will be disproportionately high.
Back in the day, you could get a decent little lathe for the price of a mid-priced car. For a top end machine, it would be twice that amount. I suggest, that price relationship is still about the same. I think you can get an HVLH knock off in the $20K range (it will be nice). Keith's price point is out of whack.
Generally, the better machines are going to be bigger and heavier than the low end machines. I was successful in tracking down a "good" lathe. The work envelop is 11x24 - right on what he had in mind. The only problem with the limitation he identified is that it is #2700 and 68" long. Perhaps there is a good solid little machine (as in a 9" or 10" ??), but Keith has put forward some very demanding constraints.
My suggestion is that anyone looking for a higher end little machine needs to forget about what make / manufacturer it is (unless they have lots of $$, then they probably won't be interested in this thread - they can just go buy what they want). In the $5000 price range, that is going to be a used machine, probably with some issues. If you double that, and are patient, you should be able to get a nice used machine.
I know machines reasonably well (bought my first machine 33 years ago - and have used it plenty). For the smaller lathe I spent a couple years looking and learning. You are doing the right thing by asking a question here on HM. Learn what is possible and what matters in your situation.
When a Smart and Brown 1024 showed up at the local government surplus auction I went for it. I had never heard of Smart and Brown - that didn't matter because it was fitted the way I wanted.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/smartbrown/page5.html
The size, weight and power were not issues, because I had already sorted that out (in other words, get ready). The machine could not be test run and there was obvious damage. That was actually a good thing, because it brought the price down. I paid $1700 and spent about a year fussing around and fixing it up.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/smart-and-brown-1024-lathe-another-trip-to-the-auction.30870/
The quest for a "good" little lathe is well worth it. The S&B is a joy to run. Sure it is 50 years old, but a nicer set up than my gear head machine that is 20 years newer. The S&B has the controls that are arranged better, it has 6 speeds of change on the fly (very nice when threading into a shoulder or when ramping out at the end of a thread), in the high speed range the final drive is a wide belt (which is supposed to be a good feature for those who get fussed over gear patterning coming through to the finished item), a wide speed range (30-2500), collets direct into the head stock, D1-4 spindle mount (same as my other machine), fairly quite (compared to the other machines in the shop).
Of course there are other "good" little machines - some of which have been mentioned by other respondents, there are many other makers of good little lathes. Get your details sorted out (transport, cash) and learn what you want in a machine. Learn what the manufacturer's provide in a machine. Forget about what brand - you will come across nice little lathes, but you will only have one choice take it/leave it and wait for the next one. I suggest that you don't be too concerned with not being able to test the machine. If it has been dropped or looks really, really bad - then don't go for it. Good quality machines have always been expensive, and were generally well taken care of (at least for the first couple decades of their life). Also, a top little machine was probably not in production service (i.e. in a tool room). Also they were generally very well made (which is what made them top end and expensive) - they don't get trashed easily.
Another consideration is that nice little lathes are hard to find (the point of this whole thread). To an extent this is an investment. I already have a line up of folks wanting to buy the S&B. Selling it is not going to make me rich, but I sure won't lose money on it. If you buy a quality little machine in good used condition at market value price (whatever that is, it does not really matter), and look after it, you will be able to sell it at market value price. Remember, that anybody looking for a quality little machine has the same problem - there isn't much to choose from.
There are a bunch of things there that simply do not line up.
Things have really changed over the past several decades. There always has been and still is a whole category of machines that are built entirely to price, Keith doesn't want one of those (which I totally get). There is still a small market for machines which are build to a very good quality - obviously, with a small market the price will be disproportionately high.
Back in the day, you could get a decent little lathe for the price of a mid-priced car. For a top end machine, it would be twice that amount. I suggest, that price relationship is still about the same. I think you can get an HVLH knock off in the $20K range (it will be nice). Keith's price point is out of whack.
Generally, the better machines are going to be bigger and heavier than the low end machines. I was successful in tracking down a "good" lathe. The work envelop is 11x24 - right on what he had in mind. The only problem with the limitation he identified is that it is #2700 and 68" long. Perhaps there is a good solid little machine (as in a 9" or 10" ??), but Keith has put forward some very demanding constraints.
My suggestion is that anyone looking for a higher end little machine needs to forget about what make / manufacturer it is (unless they have lots of $$, then they probably won't be interested in this thread - they can just go buy what they want). In the $5000 price range, that is going to be a used machine, probably with some issues. If you double that, and are patient, you should be able to get a nice used machine.
I know machines reasonably well (bought my first machine 33 years ago - and have used it plenty). For the smaller lathe I spent a couple years looking and learning. You are doing the right thing by asking a question here on HM. Learn what is possible and what matters in your situation.
When a Smart and Brown 1024 showed up at the local government surplus auction I went for it. I had never heard of Smart and Brown - that didn't matter because it was fitted the way I wanted.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/smartbrown/page5.html
The size, weight and power were not issues, because I had already sorted that out (in other words, get ready). The machine could not be test run and there was obvious damage. That was actually a good thing, because it brought the price down. I paid $1700 and spent about a year fussing around and fixing it up.
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/smart-and-brown-1024-lathe-another-trip-to-the-auction.30870/
The quest for a "good" little lathe is well worth it. The S&B is a joy to run. Sure it is 50 years old, but a nicer set up than my gear head machine that is 20 years newer. The S&B has the controls that are arranged better, it has 6 speeds of change on the fly (very nice when threading into a shoulder or when ramping out at the end of a thread), in the high speed range the final drive is a wide belt (which is supposed to be a good feature for those who get fussed over gear patterning coming through to the finished item), a wide speed range (30-2500), collets direct into the head stock, D1-4 spindle mount (same as my other machine), fairly quite (compared to the other machines in the shop).
Of course there are other "good" little machines - some of which have been mentioned by other respondents, there are many other makers of good little lathes. Get your details sorted out (transport, cash) and learn what you want in a machine. Learn what the manufacturer's provide in a machine. Forget about what brand - you will come across nice little lathes, but you will only have one choice take it/leave it and wait for the next one. I suggest that you don't be too concerned with not being able to test the machine. If it has been dropped or looks really, really bad - then don't go for it. Good quality machines have always been expensive, and were generally well taken care of (at least for the first couple decades of their life). Also, a top little machine was probably not in production service (i.e. in a tool room). Also they were generally very well made (which is what made them top end and expensive) - they don't get trashed easily.
Another consideration is that nice little lathes are hard to find (the point of this whole thread). To an extent this is an investment. I already have a line up of folks wanting to buy the S&B. Selling it is not going to make me rich, but I sure won't lose money on it. If you buy a quality little machine in good used condition at market value price (whatever that is, it does not really matter), and look after it, you will be able to sell it at market value price. Remember, that anybody looking for a quality little machine has the same problem - there isn't much to choose from.
Ahhh, you are not thinking outside the box. You are wanting absolute accuracy, in a small footprint.
Easy answer. Go find a Hardinge HLV with the threading option. They are a 5C collet lathe but you can get a small chuck that uses the 5C backplate and you are off to the races. If they are in good shape they are ridiculously accurate, and if they are reasonably worn they are still better than a 80's import.
Now they ain't what you would refer to as cheap... But you are not going to buy a lathe that accurate as a Hardinge for $3000 or even $10000 if it's in good shape. Figure that you are going to invest about $35000 or $45000 into the lathe. Of course for that money you could put an addition on the garage and buy a 13X40 or even a 14X60 and make the room for the lathe. But you need it to be a certain size, a certain level of accuracy, so forget about the price, break out the check book and spend till the wife screams. Accuracy don't come cheap. Cheap is cheap. Accuracy costs money. Accuracy coupled with odd requirements of ant sort including space constraints costs LOTS of money.
And BTW, those numbers are for a used rebuilt HLV. New ones are no longer available. They build them in groups of 50 and require 50 be on order for a run. If they are getting close to that number, you might get a deal and end up with a brand new one for under $75000 but I would hold my breath.
Easy answer. Go find a Hardinge HLV with the threading option. They are a 5C collet lathe but you can get a small chuck that uses the 5C backplate and you are off to the races. If they are in good shape they are ridiculously accurate, and if they are reasonably worn they are still better than a 80's import.
Now they ain't what you would refer to as cheap... But you are not going to buy a lathe that accurate as a Hardinge for $3000 or even $10000 if it's in good shape. Figure that you are going to invest about $35000 or $45000 into the lathe. Of course for that money you could put an addition on the garage and buy a 13X40 or even a 14X60 and make the room for the lathe. But you need it to be a certain size, a certain level of accuracy, so forget about the price, break out the check book and spend till the wife screams. Accuracy don't come cheap. Cheap is cheap. Accuracy costs money. Accuracy coupled with odd requirements of ant sort including space constraints costs LOTS of money.
And BTW, those numbers are for a used rebuilt HLV. New ones are no longer available. They build them in groups of 50 and require 50 be on order for a run. If they are getting close to that number, you might get a deal and end up with a brand new one for under $75000 but I would hold my breath.
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The other option is buy a Sherline tabletop lathe and be happy with it. They are accurate as well and if you look at the number of guys running them and the projects they turn out they seem to do good work.
Another option would be to contact a machine rebuilder and see if they can take something with the swing you want and cut down the bed and ways to the length you need to get the machine in the location you desire. See if they have done it before and what machines they feel that are better suited to be shortened. I have seen so odd stuff like that listed at auctions. As long as the ends of the guide rods, lead screw and the like were held on the Tailstock end with brackets, I see no reason that the bed and ways could not be cut down, the oil pan cut and channeled for the length change and the machine be shortened.
This is the lathe the OP wanted, back in 2012 ..
Chester Craftsman, 12x24.
I bought one new from Chester, circa 2014.
http://www.chesterhobbystore.com/craftsman-lathe-3978-p.asp
2200£.
The effectively same one is available in the USA, in the heavy-lathes series, from importers.
It´s also available as a 24" or a 32" long lathe.
Here is one from the USA,
Charter Oak Automation.
http://charteroakautomation.com/12-x-24-gap-bed-metal-lathe/
About 900 lbs mass, == 400 kg.
2595 $.
Here is one which is NOT COMPARABLE.
618 lbs shipping weight, so HALF the rigidity=mass.
Bolton 12x24.
http://www.boltontools.net/12-x-24-gear-head-bench-lathe-cq9332
My chester is a test bed for an industrial CNC refit ..
and is probably one of the highest-end 12x cnc refits ever made.
Chester Craftsman, 12x24.
I bought one new from Chester, circa 2014.
http://www.chesterhobbystore.com/craftsman-lathe-3978-p.asp
2200£.
The effectively same one is available in the USA, in the heavy-lathes series, from importers.
It´s also available as a 24" or a 32" long lathe.
Here is one from the USA,
Charter Oak Automation.
http://charteroakautomation.com/12-x-24-gap-bed-metal-lathe/
About 900 lbs mass, == 400 kg.
2595 $.
Here is one which is NOT COMPARABLE.
618 lbs shipping weight, so HALF the rigidity=mass.
Bolton 12x24.
http://www.boltontools.net/12-x-24-gear-head-bench-lathe-cq9332
My chester is a test bed for an industrial CNC refit ..
and is probably one of the highest-end 12x cnc refits ever made.
I read somewhere a very bad experience with Charter Oak,for what it's worth. Can't recall details,but definitely the correct place.
I would mention that the Craftsman lathe AND the Wholesale Tools lathes are BELT DRIVE,which gives a much better finish than gear heads. Not as easy to shift speeds,but gears in cheaper lathes leave "echoes" of the gear teeth on the work,which are annoying. I have run high end lathes like Dean Smith and Grace which do not,but they are in a totally different class altogether.
I am sure that all these lathes are Chinese. If they were Taiwan,they would have mentioned it for sure.
My first DECENT lathe was a Jet Taiwan made 10 x 24". It was the same lathe as the Wholesale tool,in layout(The WT lathe is a 10" with riser blocks under the headstock and tailstock.) It would leave such smooth finishes on steel,it looked nickel plated.
I emphasize TAIWAN MADE. They will cost more,but you get what you pay for. These days it is hard to find Taiwan made machines. If you do,the Taiwan origin will be stated CLEARLY. Grizzly sells some Taiwan made machines,and they cost MORE.
I will mention that even on Taiwan made machinery,parts that OUGHT to have been made from STEEL BAR STOCK,will be found to be CAST IRON,if you go altering them. I know this from personal experience. It is amazing what they will CAST!!! And,such parts will BREAK OFF more easily!!! I had this happen on my Taiwan made Jet lathe,and found out that a part I had to alter on my TAIWAN made 1986 Bridgeport clone was cast iron, too. But this particular part was not one that could break off. I had to alter it to accept a Servo power feed(I think,it's been many years).
The short stud that a gear was mounted on in the Jet lathe broke off. I was still able to hand feed the lathe(LUCKILY!), and make a STEEL shaft for that gear. It never broke again.
I would mention that the Craftsman lathe AND the Wholesale Tools lathes are BELT DRIVE,which gives a much better finish than gear heads. Not as easy to shift speeds,but gears in cheaper lathes leave "echoes" of the gear teeth on the work,which are annoying. I have run high end lathes like Dean Smith and Grace which do not,but they are in a totally different class altogether.
I am sure that all these lathes are Chinese. If they were Taiwan,they would have mentioned it for sure.
My first DECENT lathe was a Jet Taiwan made 10 x 24". It was the same lathe as the Wholesale tool,in layout(The WT lathe is a 10" with riser blocks under the headstock and tailstock.) It would leave such smooth finishes on steel,it looked nickel plated.
I emphasize TAIWAN MADE. They will cost more,but you get what you pay for. These days it is hard to find Taiwan made machines. If you do,the Taiwan origin will be stated CLEARLY. Grizzly sells some Taiwan made machines,and they cost MORE.
I will mention that even on Taiwan made machinery,parts that OUGHT to have been made from STEEL BAR STOCK,will be found to be CAST IRON,if you go altering them. I know this from personal experience. It is amazing what they will CAST!!! And,such parts will BREAK OFF more easily!!! I had this happen on my Taiwan made Jet lathe,and found out that a part I had to alter on my TAIWAN made 1986 Bridgeport clone was cast iron, too. But this particular part was not one that could break off. I had to alter it to accept a Servo power feed(I think,it's been many years).
The short stud that a gear was mounted on in the Jet lathe broke off. I was still able to hand feed the lathe(LUCKILY!), and make a STEEL shaft for that gear. It never broke again.
Is there a smaller lathe with a good set of upgrades people do to improve quality? Not sure but I thought there were a couple that have several upgrades and if the right one bought new with plans to add the upgrades it could get a small good quality lathe. Grizzly?
This would be my suggestion. I think even a little Colchester Chipmaster would do everything he wants but he'd need to import it from the UK. A bed regrind and a scrape in of the carriage and he'd be golden. They can be had quite cheap:
https://www.gumtree.com/p/lathes/colchester-chipmaster-straight-bed-centre-lathe/1177493796
And Tony Griffiths seems to like them too:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/chipmaster/
I have a Schaublin 135 and a Chipmaster and the Chippie keeps pace at a fraction of the price.
Paul.
The PM 1228 mentioned above has NO POWER CROSSFEED,I think. When you look at smaller lathes,look at the carriage and see if there's a lever for engaging a power cross feed. The PM model only has the half nut lever. I don't know what that lever on the side of the carriage is for. Is that a power crossfeed lever?
I recommend that you consider a lathe like the Wholesale Tool 12 24. It has a complete q.c. gearbox with a very wide thread range,a power crossfeed,an oil bath carriage,and is belt driven,which makes for smoother finishes. It is like my Jet 1024,which was a really good lathe. The drawback is it's Chinese. So,I'd give it a THOROUGH checking over when rec'd,looking for stray casting sand or sloppy workmanship. I hate buying Chinese,but it seems to be the only way of getting this desirable lathe model.
I would not buy from Charter Oak. From what I read,they have bad customer service.
I recommend that you consider a lathe like the Wholesale Tool 12 24. It has a complete q.c. gearbox with a very wide thread range,a power crossfeed,an oil bath carriage,and is belt driven,which makes for smoother finishes. It is like my Jet 1024,which was a really good lathe. The drawback is it's Chinese. So,I'd give it a THOROUGH checking over when rec'd,looking for stray casting sand or sloppy workmanship. I hate buying Chinese,but it seems to be the only way of getting this desirable lathe model.
I would not buy from Charter Oak. From what I read,they have bad customer service.