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Updated opinions PM vs Grizzly
- Thread starter Mogar
- Start date
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- Jun 12, 2014
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You may find some post production metal filings in the oil, reason to change it. PM and Eisen 1236/1340 Taiwanese lathes same manufacturer have been around for years without any reports of headstock issues. Gearbox on these lathes are ok, but if you need to pull them apart for an oil leak, getting them reassembled can be a nightmare.
Anyone who use differential oil in their lathe, well would be a very bad idea for multiple reasons. There may be isolated problems with any machine.
Grizzly comes with two chucks, probably marginal quality, but D1-5 back plates are common enough if you are looking for better chucks.
PM/QMT has better support and warranty, but still would pick the G0709 over the 1236 if price limited.
Anyone who use differential oil in their lathe, well would be a very bad idea for multiple reasons. There may be isolated problems with any machine.
Grizzly comes with two chucks, probably marginal quality, but D1-5 back plates are common enough if you are looking for better chucks.
PM/QMT has better support and warranty, but still would pick the G0709 over the 1236 if price limited.
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When I say it has a chunky gear box I am referring to the effort to change gears and it isn't bad, its just not smooth switching from one to another, once I got use to it, that chunkiness really isn't a problem, just wish it was a bit smoother but it works fine. When I did my 1 year oil change I used the recommended oil and added a couple ounces of Lucas to give it a little tack, and I ran a magnet around in the box for good measure and found no metal swarf in my box. The machine isn't any noisier than I expect it to be at RPM and definitely not loud noisy.
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I can say for a fact the the PM1236 does have a gap and can swing 17.625" within it but it would only be usable for facing operations.Where? I don't see it advertised with a gap anywhere on their website. Also you listed both lathes has having a gap of 17.688 which makes no sense since one is a 12 inch swing and the other 14 inch. Just saying, I think you made an oops.
I have a PM-1236T and you do get metal particles in the oil from the gears initially, but that reduces significantly after the first oil change. I have to admit I was surprised at how many particles there were, so the unhardened gears might be a disadvantage there, but I don’t see it as a long term problem for hobby use. There is a catch basin around the top of the housing casting that lets any particles settle out, and there is a well on either side of the hole that feeds oil to the bearings, so that should minimize any particles getting into the bearings that way.
One big advantage the G0709 has over the PM1236 is swing over the cross slide. You might not need that often, but if it’s a possibility, it would be difficult to get around that limitation with the smaller lathe.
You have lots of advice here. I have only to add that from my limited experience the manufacture of the Taiwan machines are far more consistent than that of the China made ones. I think it is largely the luck of the draw when buying the China made machines, Quality Control is not as good as the Taiwan machines. Which is to say, depending upon your luck, you may get a poorly made China machine or a not so poor one one. So when looking at PM the word "Ultra Precision" usually applies to the Taiwan made machines. That maybe why they can "get a way with" charging more, or "needing to" charge more.
Having experienced a China built machine's lack of QC, I next got the "Ultra Precision" PM 1440GT, .... but it does cost more. And no, I do not use the machine enough to justify the cost. But you can say this about almost any "nice" item..... car.... clothes....dinner.... Having a poor tool is always frustrating. A good machinist can extract a lot better quality from a poor tool than can the hobbyist. That is probably because he uses it enough, experiences it enough, to know how to push it at just the right time and how not to even try certain things. However, he can also get a lot better quality out of a high quality tool.
As far as your not wanting to change exchange gears. I would recommend getting a machine with a classic double handled Norton gear box. I started out with an old South Bend Heavy 10 with an extended Norton Gear box and love it. Unfortunately, other parts of the machine needs to be rebuilt. Maybe someday. It has lots of gear and feed positions (10x7=70). I posted a picture of it here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/southbendtpigearbox-20211016_093111-jpg.382995/
In the following thread. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1440tl-vs-pm1440gt.95717/page-4#post-893338
Having experienced a China built machine's lack of QC, I next got the "Ultra Precision" PM 1440GT, .... but it does cost more. And no, I do not use the machine enough to justify the cost. But you can say this about almost any "nice" item..... car.... clothes....dinner.... Having a poor tool is always frustrating. A good machinist can extract a lot better quality from a poor tool than can the hobbyist. That is probably because he uses it enough, experiences it enough, to know how to push it at just the right time and how not to even try certain things. However, he can also get a lot better quality out of a high quality tool.
As far as your not wanting to change exchange gears. I would recommend getting a machine with a classic double handled Norton gear box. I started out with an old South Bend Heavy 10 with an extended Norton Gear box and love it. Unfortunately, other parts of the machine needs to be rebuilt. Maybe someday. It has lots of gear and feed positions (10x7=70). I posted a picture of it here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachments/southbendtpigearbox-20211016_093111-jpg.382995/
In the following thread. https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/pm1440tl-vs-pm1440gt.95717/page-4#post-893338
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- Dec 18, 2013
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- 2,607
G0709 - Why I opted for the G0709
1. Compared to other 1440 lathes it's priced $1,500 to $2,000+ less. That buys a lot of tooling and upgrades.
2. Grizzly is more likely to have parts in stock. In fact I purchased a number of backup parts already. A couple of the shear pins. Headstock cover gasket. Compound scale (saw where one guy washed off the numbers with solvent), spare brass gear for the thread dial. Just in case.
3. I planned to replace the China motor on day one with a USA Baldor and isolate the motor from the lathe with a custom motor mount. So I saw no reason to pay more for Taiwan quality. This upgrade drastically reduces the vibrations induced into the lathe castings and chuck by the factory metal on metal direct mount. Before you can lay your hand anywhere on the lathe and feel the buzzing, after it's very quiet and calm. This also avoids the single phase power whoo-whoo pattern from showing up in the surface finish.
4. Larger swing over everything vs a 12" which I owned 8 years ago.
5. I planned to replace the China chucks on day one with Bison's. So again why pay for Taiwan quality.
6. D1-5 camlock spindle. While the D1-4 is more plentiful it's puny compared to the D1-5. I'll take more mass and rigidity where I can get it.
7. I may never need to swap change gears on the G0709. If I do some day it's far less of a process vs other lathe designs like the G0824 which people complained about after they purchased it.
8. G0709 has a foot brake and emergency stop limit switch that brings the lathe to an almost immediate stop.
The Bad
China will knowingly and willingly ship blatant defects and poor assembly, they don't care and have no pride. So I expected assembly and quality issues on arrival and the G0709 did not disappoint. I found loose screws. Missing set screws. backsplash dents. Chipped up headstock cover. The footbrake limit switch install was so jacked the lathe would not even turn on. Which begs the question, how did they complete the multi page inspection sheet? They didn't, they faked it. I told you they don't care. The headstock cover leaked oil all over during the break-in. One of the backsplash screws leaked headstock oil, obviously it was drilled/tapped into the headstock cavity. It didn't pour out of there so it's small, I plugged the leak with some Teflon tape. The coolant tank is a total joke. First they let it rust really good, then shot paint over it which is bubbled up over large areas. I had no intention of using coolant so I don't care. Fixing this stuff while annoying was no big deal.
The Good
On things that are important to me...the spindle was so dead nuts accurate I had to buy a Mitutoyo .0001 test indicator just to measure the runout dang! The bare metal areas were well protected and not rusted. I did have to debur the T slot in the compound they completely missed that. I tried to fish metal specs out of the headstock, I got nothing on my magnet. She's up and running now and I'm quite happy.
1. Compared to other 1440 lathes it's priced $1,500 to $2,000+ less. That buys a lot of tooling and upgrades.
2. Grizzly is more likely to have parts in stock. In fact I purchased a number of backup parts already. A couple of the shear pins. Headstock cover gasket. Compound scale (saw where one guy washed off the numbers with solvent), spare brass gear for the thread dial. Just in case.
3. I planned to replace the China motor on day one with a USA Baldor and isolate the motor from the lathe with a custom motor mount. So I saw no reason to pay more for Taiwan quality. This upgrade drastically reduces the vibrations induced into the lathe castings and chuck by the factory metal on metal direct mount. Before you can lay your hand anywhere on the lathe and feel the buzzing, after it's very quiet and calm. This also avoids the single phase power whoo-whoo pattern from showing up in the surface finish.
4. Larger swing over everything vs a 12" which I owned 8 years ago.
5. I planned to replace the China chucks on day one with Bison's. So again why pay for Taiwan quality.
6. D1-5 camlock spindle. While the D1-4 is more plentiful it's puny compared to the D1-5. I'll take more mass and rigidity where I can get it.
7. I may never need to swap change gears on the G0709. If I do some day it's far less of a process vs other lathe designs like the G0824 which people complained about after they purchased it.
8. G0709 has a foot brake and emergency stop limit switch that brings the lathe to an almost immediate stop.
The Bad
China will knowingly and willingly ship blatant defects and poor assembly, they don't care and have no pride. So I expected assembly and quality issues on arrival and the G0709 did not disappoint. I found loose screws. Missing set screws. backsplash dents. Chipped up headstock cover. The footbrake limit switch install was so jacked the lathe would not even turn on. Which begs the question, how did they complete the multi page inspection sheet? They didn't, they faked it. I told you they don't care. The headstock cover leaked oil all over during the break-in. One of the backsplash screws leaked headstock oil, obviously it was drilled/tapped into the headstock cavity. It didn't pour out of there so it's small, I plugged the leak with some Teflon tape. The coolant tank is a total joke. First they let it rust really good, then shot paint over it which is bubbled up over large areas. I had no intention of using coolant so I don't care. Fixing this stuff while annoying was no big deal.
The Good
On things that are important to me...the spindle was so dead nuts accurate I had to buy a Mitutoyo .0001 test indicator just to measure the runout dang! The bare metal areas were well protected and not rusted. I did have to debur the T slot in the compound they completely missed that. I tried to fish metal specs out of the headstock, I got nothing on my magnet. She's up and running now and I'm quite happy.
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- Mar 26, 2018
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A Taiwan version of the PM seems to be a popular choice over the years on this forum.
Taiwan has a much better handle on quality especially in their castings and final fit.
I have no personal experience with either brand.
Taiwan has a much better handle on quality especially in their castings and final fit.
I have no personal experience with either brand.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,607
Generally yes. Certainly odds are more favorable but made in Taiwan is not guaranteed to be free of lemon machines or defects.
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- Jun 12, 2014
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That applies to any machine, just the likelihood of major defects is much less and typically they are addressed by the disturber. Also, the inexpensive lathes and mills, you get what you pay for. I know numerous individuals that have bought higher quality/cost Taiwanese SunMaster lathes (ERL, RML, TRL, TL) and mills made by First Industries (LCM, LMV, etc.) and no issues or QC complaints. You pay less. You get less.
