Total beginner needs help selecting PM lathe

[jbolt]

I have had my 1440GT for 3-1/2 years so if you have any specific question feel free to ask.

My lathe started with a single phase motor and worked perfectly fine. I later changed it to a 3 phase mostly for the soft start, forward & reverse jog and electronic breaking. The variable speed is nice to have although I find I hardly use it. It will be more expensive to to change later if you feel it is necessary. I will also add there are a few 1440GT owners who had factory 3 phase motors that didn't play nice with VFD's and ended up swapping out the factory 3 phase motor for a aftermarket 3 phase motor.

I strongly disagree a DRO has less value on a lathe. I cut my teeth machining before DRO's were common. I have zero interest in going back to counting turns, marking dials with grease pens and setting up dial indicators. I went with magnetic scales as they are less sensitive to contamination if you use flood oil or coolant. Glass scales can work fine but may need a little extra protection.

I build 1-2 PRS rifles a year plus a few silhouette rifles. I go back and forth between chambering though the head vs using the steady rest. Both methods can produce match grade results. I wouldn't hesitate to do a 50 BMG on a steady if I didn't have enough spindle bore.

I would consider a 4-jaw chuck with two piece jaws. That allows for the use of soft jaws if the need arises for those unusual parts that seem to show up from time to time.

I know several guys who only use 4-jaw chucks. I primarily use a set-tru type 3-jaw chuck except when chambering. A time saver when a part has to go in and out of the chuck several times.

The taper attachment only does up to 10" at a time. I feel it is just as easy to offset the tailstock for doing contour work. Most barrels can be had pre-contoured from the barrel maker. If I were going to do a lot of full length contouring I would get a hydraulic tracing system.

Other gunsmith relates lathe tools:
Additional wedge tool holders
Single point threading tools
Parting tool
Grooving tools
Bolt fixture ( can also be used for short pistol barrels)
High quality digital caliper
High quality 1" & 2" micrometers
1" travel Dial indicators
0-15-0 test indicator
0-4-0 test indicator(s) (Standard, long reach and back plunger)
Mag base indicator holder(s) (I prefer Noga holders)
Adjustable indicator stem (for tail stock alignment)
Depth micrometer 0"-6"
Reamer holder
High quality chuck for the tail stock (keyed and keyless)
An assortment of HSS tool blanks
6" or 8" bench grinder
Caliber specific indicator rods

 

[pontiac428]

@USMA84DAB Welcome to the forum. Voc Rehab is a good program, and I think you have a cool business idea, so don't let what I'm asking deter you.

I like working rifles a lot. It's such a great application for machine work, and it is challenging to produce a 10-X rifle. In general, a PTG reamer costs $200. A highly reputable outfit like Kreiger Barrels will chamber a barrel to an action for $250 (IIRC). That means there is $50 profit in the first barrel to cover the reamer, and you need one for every caliber your customers want. The wait time for a reamer can be 6 months or more, so you'll need the common ones on hand. I guess what I am asking in a roundabout way is, how long will it take you to become profitable? I understand that once you establish a reputation for amazing precision and quality, you'll have work backlogged for months, but without a reputation the work will come in slower and you won't be able to charge as much. It seems like a tough business to be in, which is why I'm not doing it for profit. So I am curious about your business plan, and I am glad to see someone here who is doing it. Thanks!

 

[parshal]

Like jbolt, I also use a set-tru 3 jaw for chambering. I have two of them plus a 4 jaw and I rarely use the 4 jaw except for square parts. I also have an ER40 collet chuck which I use for holding small parts. You may not think you'll do small parts but I assure you that you will. You'll end up making little tools as you start getting into chambering.

In addition to a bolt fixture you'll probably end up buying or making an action truing jig.

If you chamber through the headstock you'll need to make a spider for the outboard side unless you buy a Tru Bore Alignment System (TBAS). On my first lathe, I had to chamber in a steady rest and it made some great rifles. If I were need to chamber a barrel that won't fit in my 1.59" bore I'd not hesitate to use a steady rest. Unless you are specifically setting up to do 50 cal I'd go with the 1340 and get all the goodies with it for about the same price as the 1440 with fewer goodies. Being able to thread with a proximity stop is the best thing in the world. That's the single best thing I've got on the lathe.

With the reamers you'll need an assortment of bushings in different diameters for each caliber. Those little buggers get expensive in a hurry for what they are.

 

[USMA84DAB]

MKSJ - thanks for the teaching about the VFD.

JBOLT - you are starting to tell me the things I haven't understood or known - like if I HAD to do a .50 cal barrel, I could do it on steady rests - given that, then there is no reason to not select the 1340GT. (Don't HAVE to have the 2" spindle)

Now - the tooling - guys - I simply do not know SPECIFICALLY what additional tools I am gonna need - JBOLT started to list things out - some I have heard of, some are totally new to me - What are the sources? Prices? What are they for? Where do I get a Tru-bore alignment system? I guess I am leading to the question of doesn't this website have a list of items that one absolutely must have/things that are needed to be productive/things that are real work savers once you get going? This would be a great sticky to have somewhere on the site so knotheads like me don't chew up all of your time with the same questions over and over. I have a basic tooling list for class this summer, but you guys have already begun exploding that bare minimum starting list. I really need specificity and an explanation for many tools/options in order to get the VA's buy-off on funding it.

0-15-0 test indicator?

0-4-0 test indicator?

High quality chuck - what is wrong with the ones sold by PM?

Where do you recommend I get a bolt fixture? How many additional wedge tool holders beyond the set sold with the lathe on PM?

Yep - there are reamers, bushings, headspace gauges, yadda, yadda, yadda. Would it help you guys to help me, if I typed in the tooling list for the classes at Trinidad State? Would this give you clarity on what they expect and where I am starting from? Or are you all such massive brainiacs that you don't need this? Just trying to understand how to get what I will need, as well as what to share with you so you can help me - and because of my ignorance in this field, I am struggling to understand your help.

PONTIAC428 - if you start a conversation with me and send your e-mail, I will just send you my business plan - the short answer is that I won't have loans, have a shop already, am only able to work about 20 hours/week, and would take in a 50% deposit before beginning each rifle build. Thus, buy the reamer, or pay myself back for having already bought the common ones, or rent one for a job that has a short deadline. Also, I have 8 rifles already spoken for by friends to get started, so this is another reason/the driver for not having to rebuild/repair/modify the machine, and rather to get started turning out work. Around KC here, there are not many gunsmiths, so I am betting on there being work to do even before I get to build new ones.

Sorry you need to get so simplistic in explaining things.

 

[wrmiller]

I have told people before, that if you're going to spend the extra money to buy a quality Taiwan made lathe, then put quality extras on it as well. Otherwise, you're just pissing away money on the lathe. But that's just my opinion.

I have a 1340GT 3-phase (w/VFD) that I used to do hobby stuff and pistolsmithing. Occasionally some rifle work, but that is the exception not the rule. I have a DroPros EL400 lathe specific DRO with mag scales ( with a .00005" scale on the cross slide). I have a Dorian tool post and use Aloris tool holders when repeatability is critical. I spent big bucks (well, to me anyway) on a Pratt Burnerd 8" setrite 3-jaw chuck. Most expensive darn chuck I've ever bought. And the most accurate and repeatable chuck I've ever owned. I use this chuck more than the other two combined. I don't remember what I spent on that chuck, but I'm pretty sure it was closer to $2k than it was $1k.

Mksj did a control board and wiring for me, along with a electronic stop that I use when threading. I love the soft-start feature of the VFD, the variable speed, and the fact that I can switch between 1 and 3 second braking (no foot brake on the 1340, but I don't miss it).

When I'm trying to hit a critical dimension, I can literally dial in .0004" on the DRO readout (.0002" DOC), and cut exactly that.

Not trying to brag, just saying that the lathe is more accurate than I am. But it may not be if I had scrimped on the accessories. It's a judgement call for sure, and I'm not sure what you can get the VA to buy off on.

Best of luck with your new venture!

 

[GL]

There are many threads on this site where others have asked similar questions. What lathe/mill/? to buy.. What's best? Etc.. The problem is that no list is definitive for everyone - so a list, by part number, doesn't exist . I guess I tried to suggest that you had the luxury of a known need, instead of an arbitrary desire to learn about machining. You have, without knowing it, pulled in some of the "heavy hitters" on this site - those who have over time have given their of time and shared their vast experience. There are tool junkies here, all will help you spend money, but the advice given in this thread has been prudent - some by actual gunsmiths, some by people who make things out of metal. To help you understand, you might look at catalogs or websites like Travers, MSC, or Shars - look at the test indicators, and chucks, and calipers etc that have been suggested to familiarize yourself with the lingo. These are just representative vendors, better deals may exist in other places and other suggestions will probably emerge, but this is more about education than shopping at this point. In most cases, "expensive " is the good stuff. The best mechanics I know don't own Snap-on tools, just "better than average " Craftsman. Starrett, Mittitoyo, Tessa , Interapid are among others are the good stuff. Most have acquired over years, probably most of it used instead of new. You don't have the luxury of time. To further your education, there are lots of good utube educators out there that are excellent. The value you glean may be a function of where you are, but they all have something to offer. Mrpete222, oxtoolco, Joe Piecenski , abom79, blondiehacks , thisoldtony, to name a few popular channels. At the end of the day, machining is about understanding a few basic processes and applying it to your specific problem. "Really good" tools often make things easier, and lessor tools make things possible with a bit more thought. And the offer still stands.

 

[Naptown Gaijin]

High quality chuck - what is wrong with the ones sold by PM?

West Point class of '84, I presume....
I was USAF OTS (class 1977-08), and am also looking to get into making a couple firearms.

I have spent over 50 years around firearms, and have a few thoughts for you. Please see the attached word doc.

 

[USMA84DAB]

Naptown -

Will look up Powers

Already hooked in to Brownells as a dealer

Will contact Nadeja

I have been watching Tubalcain

Will look for Eric Vahler's videos

I am on board for a 1340 from Taiwan

My instructor has pointed me at the same types of tools.

I am aware of the tons and tons of support tools - I have been told that if the grant request breaks $25K, it goes to Washington, District of Criminals for approval. No one has ever seen a grant request come back from DC approved. I am looking at the mill, then the lathe.

#9 - I am tracking - plan on rifle building, and maintenance/gunsmithing stuff.

#10 - got my class 7 FFL in FEB - had a great time with the zoning Nazis at the county, but got through that

While I am not a Leg (a 5 jump chump, and a dope on a rope as well), I will take all the help I can get from you Zoomies up there - who the stink would spurn a pair of A-10s, or Strike Eagles dropping napalm, or clusters, or even just 500 pounders? A Scout's push to talk switch to speak to you guys - THAT is a weapon!

Thanks for the input - it helps to get a sounding/azimuth check from others!

My summer classes are now cut by 3/4 due to the Chinese Flu. I am gonna forecast that the VA will then say that because I cannot attend the classes this summer, then they can't do the feasibility study on the business idea, so therefore, can't provide the grant money. I am starting to build rifles this next week, as I have some people already stacked up waiting for work. Hand reaming a chamber is alot harder, but I have done it before.

Will keep you lads posted on what is going on.