The welder selection decisions?

[graham-xrf]

I know I am late to the party here. I tried searching and reading - until I dozed out!
The sheer number of brands, types features, jargon and prices. Reviews that are good, reviews that are biased, reviews that are unfair/incompetent/irrelevant, is only part of what we face.

No - I do not want to see another YT video of the "unboxing" of some dude's latest sponsored toy! I am thinking the only way through might have to resort to Baysian weighted attributes decision tree analysis, but before I go slowly crazy, I think there are some yes/no choices that can match to one's needs and budget. There are features that have abbreviations that need translation before even discussing whether one needs it or not. I start from nothing, other than that I remember @DavidR8 bought a Primeweld and a Esab mask.

1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one?
2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there?
3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect?
4. Helmet - features essential. What are they?
5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. Only from what I know about electronics, I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor".
6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful?
7.HF Ignition? How does that work?
8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? What is needed?
9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar.
10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid?
11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance.
12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"?
13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential?
14. Finally, is there some hope that we can figure out something like a "HM fine and respected" list?

 

[Lo-Fi]

Go MIG, unless you're desperate to do ali? Gasless is cheap garbage of the worst kind, IMHO. Look up hobbyweld for hobbyist friendly gas.

R-Tech 180 Amp Portable Inverter Mig Welder (240v)

Mig Welder R-Tech MIG180

www.r-techwelding.co.uk

That's my "literally look no further" suggestion when asked this. Decent kit, good support, 180 amps is enough for almost anything. I rarely use over 120, even on thick stuff. There are multi machines, but you're only going to get DC TIG, so no ali welding anyway. Regretted buying a multi machine myself. Stick isn't much use over MIG really. Having experienced the cheap machines you can buy on eBay or Amazon.... I can't recommend.

For a hood, if you've got the budget:

Lincoln Electric Viking welding helmet- Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd

Welcome to the Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd website. Shop our range of welding safety equipment supplies, Lincoln Electric Viking 3350 Welding Helmet.

www.weld-eng.co.uk

What you got in mind to be doing?

 

[graham-xrf]

Go MIG, unless you're desperate to do ali? Gasless is cheap garbage of the worst kind, IMHO. Look up hobbyweld for hobbyist friendly gas.

R-Tech 180 Amp Portable Inverter Mig Welder (240v)

Mig Welder R-Tech MIG180

www.r-techwelding.co.uk

That's my "literally look no further" suggestion when asked this. Decent kit, good support, 180 amps is enough for almost anything. I rarely use over 120, even on thick stuff. There are multi machines, but you're only going to get DC TIG, so no ali welding anyway. Regretted buying a multi machine myself. Stick isn't much use over MIG really. Having experienced the cheap machines you can buy on eBay or Amazon.... I can't recommend.

For a hood, if you've got the budget:

Lincoln Electric Viking welding helmet- Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd

Welcome to the Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd website. Shop our range of welding safety equipment supplies, Lincoln Electric Viking 3350 Welding Helmet.

www.weld-eng.co.uk

What you got in mind to be doing?

My thanks to you for some solid stuff. OK - No2 is answered. Use gas.
For my education, is welding aluminum just a matter of using aluminum wire and a suitable current setting?

The first job use is to weld up a frame braced bench for my lathe, with casters and leveling jack bolts. Outwardly, it can look like a lathe stand with tool drawers, but underneath is a cross support on side frames with "A" braces. The left side has to have some structure to hang the underneath drive countershaft mechanism, and motor. That would be the first job, but no doubt there will be more. I want to have the basics for my shop. Aside from the machines (lathe, mill-drill, bench grinder), I consider one should have at least welder, shop-vac, air compressor, 2 files, hacksaw and a big hammer.


[Edit; I have just noticed the link is to UK supplier - many thanks]

 

[Lo-Fi]

Ali with MIG is possible, but you really need a spool gun, which has the wire feed rollers on the gun. Ive never had any luck with MIG and ali, though - a proper AC TIG machine is the way to go. You need and AC rather than a DC only TIG because the reverse voltage swing helps blow the higher melting point oxide layer off.

 

[sycle1]

I got a little Kempi brand mig it does AC / DC so it can do aluminium, steel stainless etc.
Its a 15 amp machine.
I use it gasless on steel mainly cause I am lazy and you get sick of paying cylinder rental costs.
Using argoshield gas for steel produces better looking welds or Argon gas for Aluminum, it welds both really well.
I made two 7 metre sliding driveway gates out of alloy box section and alloy angle.
it got some really hard work right out of the box and handled it like a champ, its the best small welder I have ever used.
That was ten years ago and it still spits out weld after weld on a near daily basis. I have replaced the on off switch due to wear, other than that hasn't missed a beat.

 

[7milesup]

1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one? Yes and No Depends on what you want to do. Tig Aluminum and then MIG weld on your tractor. No

2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there? Gasless MIG is fine depending on what you are doing. TIG MUST use gas.
3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect? 120 Amps would probably work. Higher if you planning on TIG'ing.
4. Helmet - features essential. What are they? Get an auto-darken. I have a Lincoln 2450 series. Works good. Speed Glass, Optrel and other name brands like Miller are good.
5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. Only from what I know about electronics, I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gaste Bipolar Transistor". Inverter. You can get transformer but the inverter allows more versatility. Transformer if going for production work.
6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful? I don't know about reviews but Jody from Welding Tips and Tricks is really good. 6061 On YouTube is very good. Would like to learn more from him but he charges for some videos.
7.HF Ignition? How does that work? HF ignition is what I would consider a must in a TIG machine if doing aluminum. HF is much better IMHO that lift or scratch start. I feel like lift or scratch you can contaminate the tungsten more easily that way.
8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? What is needed? Air is fine if doing TIG welding below 150 amps for short periods. My Lincoln TIG torch is rated at 150 amps, but i have done 200 with it. Long term use at that amp is not fun. The torch gets hot, so hot that you can't hold it after a while.
9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar. No idea what is available across the pond.
10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid? Harbor Freight... LOL.
11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance. I would stick with the name brands. You will spend more for Lincoln and Miller because the red and blue paint is expensive! LOL. Actually, if I were to do it over, I would seriously consider ESAB. Lot of bang for the buck in my opinion.
12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"? Maybe, but not in my price range. As a side note, our Hyundai Santa Fe has been flawless for 7 years!
13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential? YES! A welding jacket, especially for TIG, which emmits a lot more radiation than other types of welding. A welding jacket was the best $30 I spent. Now I just can hope I don't get cancer on my lower neck/upper chest where I burned myself umpteen times before wising up and buying a jacket.
14. Finally, is there some hope that we can figure out something like a "HM fine and respected" list? Beats me!! Of course, just like all that I wrote above is just my opinion, so it may not be worth the electrons used to write it.

 

[addertooth]

I like swinging a polecat in a crowded room; it seems like a fun kind of mayhem.
If you don't see yourself doing a welding project about once every month or two, AND welding steel meets your needs.
Consider buying a cheap 110 Volt "flux core welder". I have a couple of them, and for welding up tables they work just fine.
I would gladly weld metal up to 5/16th with them (without worrying about grinding grooves or channels beforehand).

It is a cheap way to jump in, cut your teeth, gain some experience, BEFORE you make up your mind which welder will be
your "forever welder".

When you are ready to step up, do an inventory of what kinds of 220 volt socket you have in your workspace, and make sure
your circuits are rated to run your forever welder. If not, then you will have to upgrade your circuits, or down grade your expectations.

Think about the layout of your workshop. You won't want the dust from welding slag, and grinding dust near your lathe and mill
(assuming you have, or will want a lathe and a mill). Those bi-products of welding are unhealthy for the precision surfaces on your
machining tools. This is where knowing the socket you will be using with your welder is important. This may go with your wiring
upgrade plan, as the WHERE of your welder can be just as important as finding a way to plug it in. I dealt with my "where" by purchasing
a 40 foot extension cord made with 8 gauge wire. Borrow a buddy's flux core wire welder, and have him give you some tips on how to use
it. You will find a bit of training goes a long ways toward happiness with any tool. Weld some stuff, see what you learn. You may even
discover that welding is not your bag (unlikely), but if that is so, you have save hundreds of dollars buying a nice rig.

 

[Aaron_W]

You are in the UK so that is going to make some difference, in what machines are available, and you don't have the 120v or 240v issue many here trying to keep it cheap have. Everything is 240v over there I think.

Something in the 200amp range is a pretty good hobby machine allowing you to weld up to about 3/8". The cheaper 125-150 amp machines will limit you to around 1/4". Most machines below 250amps are generally considered light duty, and will have a much lower duty cycle than the larger "professional" machines.

As far as processes, stick is the most forgiving of the material cleanliness. Always good to clean your joints but 6010 or 6011 will still work on stuff that MIG will have a fit over and TIG will just say no. MIG is next in prep and TIG demands a very clean joint.

Set up is similar, stick you can take quickly take a wire brush to your parts and get going unless the metal is really nasty, no gas to worry about. You do need to think about which rod you are using but, 6011 and 7018 will do most work on steel that a hobbyist would be interested in doing. If you get more adventurous though you will have to learn about the different rods. Size of rod is largely related to size of work. Some people can make stick welds look good, but for most casual welders stick is mostly about sticking parts together, not appearance. Hey if you have a grinder you can make almost any weld look ok. Stick welders are also by far the cheapest option.

MIG is just a little more set up than Stick, work needs to be a little cleaner, and you need to remember to turn on the gas (you will figure that out real fast when you get black sooty crap welds). On steel you can run straight CO2 (cheap) or a 75/25 CO2 Argon mix (provides better quality welds, but costs more), I suppose some switch gases depending on the project, using cheap gas for welds that don't need to be as pretty, but I expect most either go cheap and run CO2 or pay more and use the mixed gas on everything. For the most part you don't have to change your wire size / material, but you do need to set the machine for the thickness of the material you are welding, power and wire speed. You may want to change the size if you have a big project with very thin or thick metal, but other wise most will stick with the wire size best for their usual work.
Most people find MIG to be the easiest type of welding, but this can be misleading as you can have a decent looking but bad (low strength) weld with MIG much more easily than with other types of welding. To do something other than steel, you may need to change you gas, and or type of wire.
Flux core is basically gasless MIG (by definition MIG uses gas, but that is getting pedantic). You can think of it as stick welding with wire feed. Some like it, but most who have a MIG welder prefer to use gas and solid wire. Flux core only welders can be very cheap, but they also tend to be very cheap (low quality).

TIG is generally agreed to be the most difficult. It also take a lot more prep time, a lot more. When I took a MIG welding class, I probably got 2-3 hours of welding done out of a 4 hour session. When I took TIG, I probably got 1/3 to 1/2 as much time actually welding, the rest of the time was prep, grinding my tungsten, and cleaning my metal (usually would grind 3 or 4 tungsten electrodes to speed up changes when I invariably dipped my tungsten in the pool). TIG is very precise and versatile but it is very unforgiving of errors. TIG is also the most expensive, the machines cost more, it uses more expensive gas, you have to by tungsten electrodes (not super expensive but an added cost) and you will need a dedicated grinder for tungsten.

I think it is fair to say the majority of hobby welders who only do one kind of welding go for a MIG welder, with a smaller portion choosing stick. Stick is cheap and simple, but for most has a steeper learning curve than MIG. I think most who go with TIG have a very specific reason for choosing it. Of course many hobby welders have multiple processes available.

Not even getting into oxy-fuel welding which is really kind of its own thing, and quite different from arc welding.

As far as machines that can do it all? Lots of (most?) TIG welders can also stick weld. Most MIG welders are single function. This is because MIG welders work differently than Stick / TIG. In the past few years multi-process MIG / Stick, MIG / Stick / TIG, and even some combining plasma cutting have become a thing. Most of the MIG / Stick / TIG machines are DC only which means they can not TIG weld aluminum. They may be able to MIG weld with a spool gun or stick weld aluminum. A few have introduced AC/DC multi process machines (at a minimum Miller has a couple now and ESAB has at least one) which can TIG weld aluminum.
A multi-process machine is in most cases literally two welders in one machine so they do cost more, the AC/DC multi-process machines cost quite a bit more.

As with any combination machine there are pros and cons to putting it all in one machine. I have a Miller 220 AC/DC multi-process machine and I couldn't be happier with it.

 

[graham-xrf]

You are in the UK so that is going to make some difference, in what machines are available, and you don't have the 120v or 240v issue many here trying to keep it cheap have. Everything is 240v over there I think.

Thank you for the expansive answer. I'm sure what you wrote will be appreciated by many others.
Yes, the UK voltage is nominally 235V, and can vary by some percentage. Years ago, with voltages actually used in Europe 220V (Spain) and up to 240V (UK) it was all about the percentage tolerance. They got around it by choosing 235V tolerance 10%, so everybody could keep going with what they had, without changing anything.

235VAC runs half the current and quarter the line losses as USA type 115VAC mains. Line voltage drop is still a real issue for me, because future shop outbuilding is going to need about 40m of SWA buried feed run, and the source already has about 8m from the consumer unit. I plan to use 10mm2, which should be fine.

I think it is fair to say the majority of hobby welders who only do one kind of welding go for a MIG welder, with a smaller portion choosing stick. Stick is cheap and simple, but for most has a steeper learning curve than MIG. I think most who go with TIG have a very specific reason for choosing it. Of course many hobby welders have multiple processes available.

For welding up frames, bench parts, support structures, and the like, I can see that stick can be convenient. When one has to weld something round to something else possibly also round, and finish the part on a lathe, I imagine things may need a bit of care. We don't want to put up with a spotty bodge with slag inclusions ever, not even on a bit of casual bracket on a frame, but getting it wrong has less consequence, and making it right is easier than on something where you have to start over.

As far as machines that can do it all? Lots of (most?) TIG welders can also stick weld. Most MIG welders are single function. This is because MIG welders work differently than Stick / TIG. In the past few years multi-process MIG / Stick, MIG / Stick / TIG, and even some combining plasma cutting have become a thing. Most of the MIG / Stick / TIG machines are DC only which means they can not TIG weld aluminum. They may be able to MIG weld with a spool gun or stick weld aluminum. A few have introduced AC/DC multi process machines (at a minimum Miller has a couple now and ESAB has at least one) which can TIG weld aluminum.
A multi-process machine is in most cases literally two welders in one machine so they do cost more, the AC/DC multi-process machines cost quite a bit more.
As with any combination machine there are pros and cons to putting it all in one machine. I have a Miller 220 AC/DC multi-process machine and I couldn't be happier with it.

Although we (Hobby Machinist) types do aspire to working up the best we can with what we make/fix, many are retired, and most want to be able use their kit when they need it, without a recurring cost that would only make sense if they were using it a lot, and indefinitely. That is why I was asking about "gas or gasless". Is not "gasless" simply what we have known for the better part of a century as "stick weld", with a flux on the outside of the rod to make a slag over the weld and general effusion to stop the oxygen?

It would be OK to own the gas bottle. Having a regular hire charge when the welder is stood for some months until the next period of more intensive use occurs seems a less happy arrangement.

From the little (stick) I have done, I have to "imagine" where the weld pool really is somewhere under the top blob of molten slag, which is all I can see. Getting it to "start" nicely is a bit fraught, especially if the weld is any place other than horizontal, flat, in front of me. I thought MIG, or anything with gas might be a better experience. I know with enough skill, you can do pretty much anything with stick. The whole reason we have all these other ways involving gas is because of how difficult it is otherwise. Getting really good welds more easily done is surely why we spend on gas-assisted.

 

[Lo-Fi]

Fur what it's worth: I had a mate argue til he was blue in the face that flux core MIG is "just as good". He's super cheap. Forced a decent gas MIG into his hand... Needless to say, he hasn't looked back and has totally reversed his opinion.

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