RANT: 5C Collets Chuck, D1-4 Cam-Lock

Senna said:
Excellent thread top to bottom!

What are your thoughts on used equipment of this type?

Certainly harder to find but perhaps the chances of getting a really good unit used is as good as the chances you take buying brand new.

Industry generally seems to buy high quality stuff because they can't afford to go cheap. A lot of this stuff hits the open market eventually. Some of it may be utterly worn out but plenty still have a lifetime of hobbyist use in them.


To me it would seem that buying a half used up Hardinge chuck would be a better route than playing Chinese roulette. Even for more money.


Maybe not, but that's my thinking anyway.


Jim, I too hope Chinese QA permeates their military industrial complex and I chuckled when I read what you wrote.


Why do you make so much sense all the time Ray??? Great stuff!


Great thread everyone.
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New vs used chucks... It's just like anything else. If you know what to look for and if you know how to check it -and if it's at the right price -and if you are in the right place at the right time etc... -Whip out the wallet!

My 5C collet chuck was purchased on eBay for something like 75 bucks including shipping. It's a shars brand. The seller said it wouldn't run true. I contacted him about it and even gave him the procedure to set it up. -Nope... He was convinced it was no good and wanted no part of any discussion on how to check for sure. I bought it, set it up -and it runs dead on!

I also bought an old Union 6", 4J on eBay. The jaws were wiggling around like loose teeth in a 8 year old's mouth. I did a weld build-up on the jaw slots, re-cut new slots... -Made it a little better -but I eventually gave it away to a guy who did hobby projects with the boy scouts. -Good enough for him, not for me.

Win some, lose some...

On the flip side, most all new chucks need some dressing and fitting and every backplate I've ever had needed trimming and fine-tuning to the spindle cone.

I hate selling chucks! Some folks buy them and curse me out like crazy when they read 2 thou out. ---Did you fit the backplate and chuck? No! Well, have you got some time to hear a bedtime story about chucks?


Ray
 
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It was requested that I post some pictures of the grinding process. If you haven't been following this thread, scroll to the top to see the original problem.

First I had to make a fixture to hold my HF die grinder.

gf1.jpg


gf2.jpg



Then indicate the on the tapered bore to set the compound angle to 10* A bit of a leap of faith here, I hope the Chinese at least got the angle correct. I probably should have used the one Hardinge collet I have to check the angle. I may do that tomorrow, because I may wind up doing this over anyway.

gf3.jpg

Getting set up. The grinder spindle centerline is on the lathe centerline, in this case by my calibrated eyeball, which usually serves me pretty well.

gf7.jpg


Dressing the grinding stone with a diamond. I built a holder for the diamond so I could support it in the chuck. (The ways were well covered while I was actually dressing the stone, and during grinding)


gf4.jpg

I didn't get any pictures of the actual grinding process, I was a bit busy. Get everything in position, turn on the grinder. Lock the carriage. Turn the work in the opposite direction as the grinder wheel rotation. Ease into the work with the cross slide, and just touch the work. Take a cut, feed slowly and at a constant rate with the compound, rinse, repeat until you are at the target depth. In this case the target is a full circle cut, about 0.002 inch. You can hear when it's cutting the full circle.

I indicated the bore after grinding, and have less than 0.0002 TIR, I can live with that. It started at 0.004

gf5.jpg

Now the problem, in the picture above the the TRO is about 0.0006 at the collet, and I checked this with 3 different collets. At about 1 1/4 inch out the TRO is about 0.0025, and I get the same reading with different collets and test bars. This means that I'm not done yet. There are a few possible causes.


gf6.jpg

First I am going to open up the chuck and make sure that there are no burrs or chips inside. I was into it once, but did not do a complete teardown and inspection. It could be that the thread plate is sitting cockeyed, or something is not machined correctly. I'll figure it out when I get in there. It needs a complete cleaning anyway after grinding. If everything inside looks good, I'll square up the back next. I'll post that process if I have to do it.
 
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I would not advise just grinding the taper part of the hole in the chuck. The rest of the hole,that holds the straight shank of the collet is still who knows how far out.

Taking the chuck apart and cleaning it is a good idea. While apart,indicate the face of the back half of the collet holder while it is mounted on the spindle. It may not be true.

If all else checks out,I agree that the best thing to do is remove the studs and mount the chuck on a new back plate,and get the chuck centered up on it.

Really,there are so many surfaces that can be a little off of true,you need to methodically check each one out,starting from the bottom end of the chuck,and working your way out. If the hole that holds the collet has an axial wobble to it,you will be in trouble as it is not good practice to try enlarging the straight part of the hole when grinding it true. O.K. to grind the tapered part a few thou.

I have an HLVH that runs dead true,but for fun,I bought one of those 5C collet chuck KITS that Metal Lathe Accessories sells .MLA is the name. Are they still in business?). They also make a neat little die filer casting kit,and a cross slide casting for 9" South Bend lathes,resembling a Myford one,with T slots across the back side. I bought it to fit another lathe with. Not as handy as the Bison type. You have to use a tommy bar to close it,not continuous cranking motion. But,aesthetically very cool. Called the LOOP chuck,I think. At least,if you are careful,you will have a very accurate chuck when you're done. I think the kit costs about as much as a Chinese 5C chuck like we're discussing here.
 
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george wilson said:
I would not advise just grinding the taper part of the hole in the chuck. The rest of the hole,that holds the straight shank of the collet is still who knows how far out.
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George, You are absolutely correct, I am going to look at that next. If I need to, I'll re-bore and sleeve the the bore. I am not going let this POS chuck get the best of me. I can work pretty cheap when I'm working for myself.
 
Re boring and sleeving the bore may be in order,as well as grinding the taper a little. That way,if you make the bore true and a close fit to the diameter of the 5C,even if the threaded ring that screws onto the rear of the collet is a little off,the collet will still be on center.
 
Success!!!!!! :happyhappy:.

After grinding the taper yesterday and a complete disassembley, deburing, cleaning, and lubrication the chuck is OK, not perfect, but I can work with it.

When I got the chuck, the nose taper TRO was 0.004, rather than the advertised 0.0004.

5ccc.jpg

The specs now are:

TRO Nose taper <0.0002

TRO at the edge of the collet <0.0002, measured on a ground 5/8 shaft

TRO at about 2 inches out <0.0006

These measurements seem to be repeatable, even after removing and re-mounting the chuck.

The bevel gear had damaged teeth, it looked like a tool bit had been raked across the gear during manufacturing, this had to happen prior to heat treating. That gear is almost file hard. I got that cleaned up with a carbide burr in my Dremel. There were chips and crud left in the cavities inside the housing. There were burred edges on some of the mating surfaces, and some surface rust in some places.

I guess I lucked out in that I didn't have to do anything to the mounting surface.

I guess moral of this story is: If you buy cheap junk tools, be prepared to put in a little work to get it right.
 
I am very glad that you got it working. But,to tell the truth,I am also surprised that just cleaning and deburring did it. Was there some grit between mating surfaces of the chuck,like between the built in back plate and the front half of the chuck?
 
I suspect that there may been a burr causing the gear/nut to sit a bit cockeyed on the thrust bearing. The rear of the bore is actually a pressed in hardened ring, so had that been a problem it would have been pretty easy to fix, it could be a tad loose. That combined with a cockeyed gear could have been the problem. I lapped the gear to get rid of the rusty spots before I reinstalled it, but it didn't seem to have any high spots.

I never did find anything really definitive. I also took a bit off the the key, I think it was way too tight and could have been part of the problem. The two haves seem to fit together with no gap so I can't say there was a problem in that area. The mounting surface seems to fit very well, with good contact on all of the mating surfaces.

The good news is that it seems to be OK now.
 
Ulma Doctor said:
(snip)

i'm wondering if a MT5 to 5c spindle adapter from grizzly would be a better step in the right direction?
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I just bought a 5MT to 5C collet adapter from Grizzly, p/n P4026001, $98.00 plus $13.95 shipping. My spindle has .0002" runout and the Grizzly adapter has .0008" run out on the taper, checked multiple times, clocked to different positions, checked for clean surfaces and burs, etc. If I clock the worst adapter run out opposite the worst spindle run out it still leaves .0006" TIR for the combination. Interestingly, the O.D. of the adapter does not have any measurable run out. I plan to build a handwheel collet closer for it so I don't have a way of checking run out of a shaft in the adapter plus collet yet.

I am not real happy with that result but have not decided whether to live with it and maybe fix it someday or go through the trouble of returning or exchanging it.

Another guy, Ray Caniglia, has gone through the same thing, received one with .0010" run out, sent it back and received a better one the second time around, and finally ground the taper himself to be truly happy with it. There are videos on his YouTube site about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ub2N7_lbNY&list=UU-CybQDYy-IDuNwlx47Ha2Q
There are four videos total on his site about dealing with the problems.
-Bob
 
Timely article - thanks for the details. I was thinking about getting a 5C chuck for the 12x36 and thought that buying a back plate plus chuck would be a better bet on getting more accuracy, vs buying the all in one.
 
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