PM Lathe & Mill Selections - (Novice)

Aurelius: Excellent points all around. I really appreciate you sharing the experience of moving those same tools to your basement shop. Gravity is my friend going down but man, even when it comes to moving a sheet of plywood or MDF down the stairs to my shop is not pleasant at all. We even had our current house built in such a way to accommodate a non-walkout basement, i.e. easy stairway access with straight shot to the shop. That's all great in theory but man do I envy you guys with a ground floor setup.

The 728/1228 would definitely give me an opportunity to get my feet wet in metalworking pretty much straightaway. However, if my approach to MW (metalworking) tracks in the same manner as the WW (woodworking) hobby, I will almost certainly hold out for the bigger machines. Knowing me, I will always be thinking that a bit more patience & a few more dollars would result in a definite step up. Even if that step up is overkill for my needs.

I do realize this comes down to a number of factors that I will have to sort through. Hence, the reason why I posted in here 1st as I really value all of these opinions!! It was also quite enlightening to actually see the two units (833/1236) first hand at the PM warehouse. That alone was enough to convince me that these are ground level machines and that any thoughts I originally had for disassembly & transport to a basement is off limits. I will wait for an appropriate facility before considering a basement move.

Again, thanks for your feedback!

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within reason....

A large machine will do every small task you present it.
A small machine will do no large task you present it.
You prolly don't need a 30" x 250" marine ship engine lathe to turn a center punch, but it can make it.
 
@Bell 407GXi

I have two PM machines. One is made in China (PM940M-CNC-VS) and the other in Taiwan (PM1440GT). The extra money you pay for the Taiwan machine is usually well worth it. On the PM site look for the phrase "Ultra Precision". I realize your initial choices did this, but just don't change this.
With respect to size. I purchased the 940M largely because it was the largest in its class. My feeling now is that if you are going to make small accurate pieces it maybe better to have a smaller machine which can be more accurate!

I was just starting out when I purchased the mill so I did as @verbotenwhisky suggested and purchased a number of PM suggested tooling and accessories. It was not a mistake. I had them put the magnetic DRO on the lathe and they did a nice job of installing it. It was worth it just to have them clean a lot of the rust prevention shipping grease off of the machine!

I have the flood cutting coolant/lubricant system on both, but seldom use it. It is just to messy for most of my work. When I was doing a very heavy milling job i did use it a couple of times and it worked well after I purchased better "pop-bead" hoses. Some HM folks use Mist lubricant systems and these are probably less messy. It is probably a better approach, but does require compressed air.

Good Luck.
 
What kind of accessibility do you have to your basement? Does it have to go down the stairs from inside the house? I have a Bilco door/steps for my basement that all my metalworking and woodworking machines came through. I used a flatbed tow truck to slide the 3/4 Bridgeport size mill and 1236T into the basement, a standard truck with a winch will be able to get them out. If you have access like that, no problem with the bigger machines.

I would not wait until you have the new house to get any machines, you don’t know what the future holds, so get what you want now and enjoy it. I would suggest getting the biggest you can get into the basement, you have 3-5 years to figure out how to get it out. In that time you will be more familiar with them, so if you have to take them down to even smaller parts to get them out, you will know how to put them back together, and get them working again. Prices on machines have increased a lot the last 4 years, I bought my 1236T for $4,800 I think it was in November 2020, it is now $7,000. Prices might not increase that much again the next 4 years, but maybe it does.
 
Hi Nick
I was in the last 12 months, where you are heading in the next few years as I recall you saying. As a total novice, you don't know what you don't know, seeking advice is helpful (I did that) you can always spend "just a bit more" to get the bigger better machine & machine envy is a real thing. I just retired 7 weeks ago (I'm 62) and have been buying machinery like its my job over the past year. I was heavily considering new equipment from Precision Matthews, but by biding my time a little bit I was able to land a lightly used PM-1228 lathe & a PM 935TS knee mill (different times) they both came with a DRO and thousands of dollars of extras (each) I specifically hunted for the PM-1228 lathe as I wanted 110v ,1.1/2" bore & quick change gearbox & I had a countertop all picked out for it. The PM935TS knee mill was more machine than I needed, but it came up for sale less than an hour away , was hardly used , & like I said, had lots of tooling , also, both were 1 owners. Your in Danville In ,only 1,25 hrs away (62 mi.) By Google maps. I would like to invite you to my shop to talk machines & check out the PM-1228 if you like. I live in St. Paul In. I have most of my machine featured lately on my YouTube channel "Saint Paul Steam" I have done a few modifications on most of my machines (as we all seem to do) I use my shop for mostly small machine work on stationary steam engines. A huge help to me has been to view as many "blondihacks" YouTube videos as you can take. Quinn does an excellent job of explaining things in novice type of way that is easy to understand. She makes novice mistakes also, but owns them & explains where she errored. Joseph Higgins has many videos of the PM-1228 lathe , he is an acquaintance & we have talked occasionally, I will see him next weekend @ cabin fever expo in Lebanon PA.
 
Buy just one first, probably the lathe.

One big machine tool will get you well started and keep you busy. You'll learn about moving it in, operating it, etc. You'll learn about materials and tooling. All this will put you in a much better position to pick out the best 2nd tool for your needs and wants.

I bought a PM1130v lathe and a PM-833TV mill within a year of each other. Not far off the machines you are talking about. I got the lathe first and install my own DRO and an Electronic Leadscrew (ELS). Recently installed a plinth toolholder that eliminates the compound (unless I need to swap it back). It cuts and threads marvelously. It took 7 or 8 months to get the basics going and another 7 or 8 to get moderately comfortable and competent at running it. I got the mill about 7 months after the lathe.

FWIW, I think the 1130v is at least as well made as the 833TV. Despite being a "China" model.

You might consider the 1130 versus the 1228. Same thru hole size for the spindle and it's actually substantially heavier than the 1228. For me, an ELS conversion for the 1130v made it a better lathe than a 1228. Only if you don't want an ELS for the 1130v, the gearbox of the 1228 would be a plus.
 
I'm a retired "woodworker", in a sense. I owned a 25,000' plant full of CNC equipment and too many employees. I state this because it affects my choices in hobby metalworking equipment choices. I started with a 10 year old Jet 949 mill that I got when I bought out another business. The start of a rabbit hole! I spent a year looking for a used lathe but lacking knowledge and leery of what I might end up with in "old iron." I bit the bullet and bought a PM 1440HD (Chinese.) It's an OK machine but required some "adjustments". Based on that, I'd buy Taiwan machines now. (The Jet mill is Taiwan made.)

If you can manage to get the use of a garage stall for the 2 or 3 years until retirement, for sure go for the bigger, keeper machines. Reasons: reselling newish, smaller machines is going to cost you a lot in deprecation. You will also be spending an amazing amount of $ on "accessories" that may not transfer over to the larger machines later. And, as you become familiar with your machines you will develop a skill to know what and when to take emergency action (sound, vibration, motor effort.....) specific to your machine.

My lathe: 1½" bore hasn't been a problem for my use. 3 hp 3 phase never been short, BAX tool holders (23 pc!) mostly from Shars when on sale, no problems. PM supplied DRO works great, taper attachment rarely used. Change gears needed to switch between inch & metric (greasy and takes a few minutes) almost all inch threads are available via the gear box. I use both HSS & inserted tooling & have a tool & cutter grinder. I replaced the bump style knurling tool with a scissors type. I don't use the installed flood coolant system. I don't "calculate" speeds & feeds just use what works and change when it doesn't. The lathe came with an 8" 4 jaw & 6" 3 jaw, travel and fixed steady rests, 12" face plate, centers. I bought a nice 8" Taiwan 3 jaw chuck, 5C & ER40 adjustable chucks & collets, a better drill chuck, set of drive dogs. Made a spider for the spindle.

Jet 9x49 mill has a Reeves type variable spindle and all the adjustments typical of a Bridgeport knock off. I added a 3 axis DRO & knee power feed in addition to the X axis feed that came with it. 3hp, 3 phase. 6" Kurt vice. R8 spindle. Accessories I've added: Vertex 8" rotary table, BS-1 indexing head, 7x10 tilt table, Spin indexer, Coaxial indicator, R8 to ER40 spindle arbor, 3" boring head, tool makers vice. clamp set, lots of tooling.

Other: Mitutoyo & Starrett Micrometers to 3", Fowler caliper, height gage, gage blocks, gage pins .011 to .499", angle blocks, thread mic, 18X24 granite surface plate, US General tool cabinets, cold saw, bench grinders, Shars tool & cutter grinder, Miller welder....

Do I need all this stuff? Absolutely not. I bought some of it just so I could learn to use it. This list will give you some idea of where you might be headed! Addictive! Psychological treatment may be required.
 
Bell 407GXi said:
Hey guys, I realize this can go a myriad of directions, but I value the input and opinions presented in this forum. Understanding that I’m very similar to a lot of novice hobbyists in that I come from a woodworking background & have always had the desire for metalworking. Given that I’m within 2-3 years of retirement, I figure it’s time to step up my interest & make some equipment selections.

Here’s where I am. My preference is to go with Precision Matthews based primarily on what I’ve been able to glean from the equipment details on their website along with multiple conversations I’ve had with PM Customer Support. Furthermore, last summer we made a day trip over to the PM warehouse outside Pittsburgh to view a couple of machines John arranged to display for us (PM-833TV mill & PM-1236T lathe). Both machines look really nice and seeing them in person was a great benefit after watching numerous videos & reading various forum threads. From a cost standpoint, I figure by adding most of the accessories for each machine & the delivery cost for both, I planned for about $19-$20K.

Let me restate, I’m a total novice with essentially zero machining background. I fully expect to receive feedback along the lines of these being far more machine than what I need, at least at this point. What do I plan to do with my metalworking desire? Just piddling around with whatever projects I would like to tinker with. This is a pure hobby for me. I’m not looking to do heavy, complex type things. So, when I put those facets in perspective, I step back to the PM-728VT mill & PM-1228VF-LB lathe. This is probably far more realistic for me while being plenty of machine for anything I can possibly think of doing. There are numerous videos of folks using those 2 machines with really good results (blondihacks, joseph higgins, others). I fully understand that it’s as much if not more the ability of the operator to run the machine versus just the machine’s overall capability & quality.

My primary complication is where I intend to place both machines. Ideally, they would go in the garage or ground level shop. Well, that may be the case in 3-5 years when we build a new house, but I don’t want to wait that long. Therefore, I will place them in my rather large basement shop, which is not walkout accessible. Unless I want to go through considerable disassembly, moving an 833 & 1236 to the basement is not practical for me whatsoever. I realize it’s been accomplished with a variety of methods, but I just don’t see that happening. Going with a 728 & 1228 (with some disassembly) is far more doable.

Again, quite honestly, a 728 & 1228 will likely be more than adequate for what I could ever need to do. Sure, the 833 & 1236 is a definite step up in numerous ways, they are an additional $4000-$5000. It’s more of a placement issue versus a cost concern. Plus, I can get the 728/1228 much sooner since they can go to the basement straightaway. The other thing I need to figure out is what support base I want to go with. There are several really good custom-made bases in the PM forum, primarily for the 833 (AllenV, kev-in) & 1236 (davidpbest).

So, I pose all this to the group with full expectation of a myriad of opinions. I likely answered my own questions here when I consider space availability, types of projects, timing, cost, etc. However, you guys are far more knowledgeable & experienced than I will ever be and therefore, I value the feedback.

Thanks!

Nick – Danville, IN
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Given that you are new to all this, I recommend you ignore the suggestions to look for used equipment. Based on your self description, I'm guessing you lack the requisite skills and measurement tools to evaluate the condition of used equipment. Older machines can look fine, but could have significant wear on the moving surfaces which will frustrate you as you learn the craft. Stick to new equipment, and if at all possible, acquire machines built in Taiwan rather than in mainland China. I started to learn metalworking 25 years ago, and I'm now on my third lathe to get to where I should have been to start - with a PM-1340GT. WRT milling, you might find this document useful for overall background, and if I were in your position, knowing what I know now, I'd get the PM-728TV benchtop mill in combination with the PM-1236T lathe. This assumes you have your intent to pursue the hobby calibrated seriously enough to want to just "cry once." DM me if you want to dialog further on all this.
 
Bell 407GXi said:
As I expected, already quite a bit of good information for me to digest, which is exactly what I am doing!

verbotenwhisky - Just to clarify your point on buying the "loaded machines not the base machines". Are you referring to the larger 833/1236 to include all the tooling & DROs listed with each model on the PM website OR if I do go with the smaller 728/1228 to also order all tooling & DROs as well? My response is that regardless or larger vs smaller, I plan to completely load up on all the tooling & DROs, i.e. not scrimp & save. John at PM helped me with all the suggested tools, vises, DROs, etc.

Thanks again guys for the continued feedback!
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All the PM machine are basic no frills then you can, in many cases, select from several packages with the same machine which include such options as hardened ways, installed DRO, powered Z and X axis, etc....
 
You haven't mentioned what you intend to make.

The 728 / 1228 is a solid small / midsize combo of machines. They are however a significant step down from the 1236 and 833 if you feel that is where you want to end up.


If your primarily intent is on learning then size does not really matter, a small machine will teach you just as well as a big one. Sometimes even more because you quickly have to learn how to work within its limits. Another plus is small machines are harder to cause yourself serious injury. They can still hurt you, just not as easily.

If you really don't know what you want to make, then if the main intent is learning and just making doo dads of opportunity, with a move expected only a few years off, maybe scale back. As it does not sound like you see the 728 / 1228 as forever machines maybe spend less money, and buy something decent that is smaller and easier to move.


Sherline and Taig are two companies that offer very small lathes and mills. Both made in USA, good quality, and good customer service. They are quite small, popular mostly with model makers, watch and clock makers etc. It is much easier to move machines weighing less than 100lbs up and down basement stairs, and the resale is fairly good on small machines, plus they are small, so don't take up much space if you keep them and buy bigger machines down the road.

Going with something this small may not be appropriate for the work you are hoping to do, I mean if you plan on making large things, parts for tractors wrong machines. However if the main intent at this point is learning, and making small replacement parts, washers, spacers, bushings and doo dads more for learning than need, they can do that well.
These are real machines, you will be limited to parts of about 2" and smaller, but they can make good parts that size. Pretty much everything you learn can carry over to the bigger machines. Cost to get set up with some small machines is far less, leaving more in the piggy bank for your forever machines in a couple of years.


One of the biggest issues people run into when they get into machining is figuring out what size machines they need. That is something that you really only get from running machines and seeing where you go with them. Buying a Bridgeport and 14" lathe and finding you like fixing watches is overkill. Buying a 10x22 lathe and mini mill, then developing a hobby of restoring old logging equipment is sure to to disappoint.
 
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