PM Lathe & Mill Selections - (Novice)

What type of woodworking machines ? I ask because I started metalworking after woodworking as well. I like the heavy commercial stuff in woodworking, large sliding table saw, 20" planer, 16" jointer, etc. I assume with a basement shop you are more used to lighter duty machines. If you are satisfied with that type of equipment, the machines you list will meet your expectations. I'm not belittling hobby machinery but being used to the commercial stuff, I'd never buy a new lathe smaller than 14x40 unless a Monarch 10ee type machine. There is a big difference in build between a 12" and a 14" in Taiwan or China machines. It might not matter for your intended use or ability to get it into your shop, but there is no substitute for heft in a lathe and the new machines are less rigid than old.

Dave
 
you post indicates that this is a hobby not a business, so new or used would work for you provided that you are in the right mind set. there is something to be said for working up the machine ladder starting small and finding out about yourself, do you enjoy tinkering and improving the machines or do you just want to start making parts? as Verboten stated you need to be mechanically inclined to tackle a used machine and for some that adds to the experience. PM and Grizzly sell some good hobby grade equipment (used can be found) and they are simpler to work on and get you feet wet tinkering with the machines, or they sell higher end more complex equipment also. I personally enjoy tinkering and have been working my way from small mini mills / lathes up to bridgeports. all of the steps in between are important and lot of the things you can learn with a smaller machine will help you understand what is going on with the larger machine and are less likely to seriously hurt you if you make a mistake.
also the smaller machines resell for a larger percentage of the new price when it is time to move up.

having said all of that my recommendation would be get the best equipment NOW that fits you and your circumstances right NOW, then plan on selling them later if and when you decide to move up. you may find that you hate machinery after a few months or not, but what i would not do is put off doing anything. grizzly and PM make the g0704 / pm 25mv level of mill that is heavy enough to get your feet wet and build skills on and they sell like hotcakes when you decide to sell, they also use the R8 spindle so tooling will transfer to most larger mills. these are also easier to move into your basement.
they also make lathes in the same category.
 
PM makes some good machines and the initial thought of the 833 and 1236 is solid. I only suggest buying an inexpensive used machine because in my experience nothing gives you a better knowledge of how something works like having to work on it yourself.

I agree that moving machines into and out of a basement shop within a few years sounds like an arduous task if you don't have to do it. However, the slightly smaller PM machines really won't be that much easier to justify going with them.

I personally don't see the need to get both a lathe and mill when your first starting out, in fact it might even be a disadvantage. Starting off with a lathe and a 4 jaw chuck is about the best IMHO, even learning how to grind HSS bits and set a lantern toolpost is an excellent starting point from my perspective.

Reasons?

Simple, understanding cutting tool geometry and how to set your bit exactly on center are two of the most important things for successfully making parts on a lathe. The lathe can do many of the things a mill will do but not so much the other way around. Older slower machines with flat belts tend to slip when you mess up rather than breaking stuff. While it's true that understanding what's a limitation of the machine vs. a limitation of the operator is important most older/worn lathes are capable of making good parts while many new import machines need considerable attention before good results can be had.

When folks ask these questions (and they do a lot on here) they will inevitably get many diverse opinions. Just keep in mind that we all come at this from our own space and our thoughts are heavily influenced by our prior experiences. I for one started out on a cheap 3 in 1 machine that nearly convinced me to give it up. Fortunately I had a business need for a lathe and ended up with a Seneca Falls Star that earned it's keep and taught me quite a few things along the way. However, as a mechanic it wasn't a problem to have something that needed fixing up. Might be a different story if I didn't already have the tools and experience I had.

So, for anyone starting out this forum is one of the best and cheapest ways to learn. Some of our best members @DavidR8 started out in a place where many of us thought would lead to frustration. I think it did, but he persisted and now is building a CNC mill....

Cheers,

John
 
Time to step back and take a breath then. Been there done that on waiting ugh, it sucks. If you are okay eating a big loss on the smaller machines and tooling when you upgrade later okay, otherwise hold off.
 
bhaack said:
I've got this exact problem now.
Current lathe has MT3 on both ends.
1340 has MT3 but 1.5" spindle bore, kinda small for my needs.
1440 has MT4, but 2" spindle bore, the size I'd rather have....
Neither will use my AXA tool post. Gotta go with BXA on both.

1440 is better for me, but now it's an extra 1000 bucks to replace all the tooling I already have.....

go figue. This likely means if I do get another / new lathe, it'll be a 13x40
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Yep, tooling backed you into a corner. Even 1340 vs 1440, my 1440 can use 3/4 shank tools and even 1 inch. Naturally I got in a hurry and bought a set of 5/8 shank tools DOH! Which I gifted to a forum member recently when I upgraded to 3/4.
 
Beckerkumm said:
What type of woodworking machines ? I ask because I started metalworking after woodworking as well. I like the heavy commercial stuff in woodworking, large sliding table saw, 20" planer, 16" jointer, etc. I assume with a basement shop you are more used to lighter duty machines. If you are satisfied with that type of equipment, the machines you list will meet your expectations. I'm not belittling hobby machinery but being used to the commercial stuff, I'd never buy a new lathe smaller than 14x40 unless a Monarch 10ee type machine. There is a big difference in build between a 12" and a 14" in Taiwan or China machines. It might not matter for your intended use or ability to get it into your shop, but there is no substitute for heft in a lathe and the new machines are less rigid than old.

Dave
Click to expand...
Hey Dave - My WW machines are just a step smaller than what you have: 15" planer, 8" jointer, 3Hp cabinet saw, Hammer bandsaw, & a pretty good assortment of Festool items. It's a tough call. I've always had the preference to go with new, which is what I've done in my WW hobby. And yes, all of this is for hobby purposes only. I definitely like the idea of the bigger, heavier machines and prefer to not buy things twice even if it means waiting a few years longer. The one thing that pulls me to the 728/1228 is that it's sort of "instant satisfaction" and I can begin to get my feet wet in metalworking. Decisions, decisions!!
 
Time is money also and IMO putting off your hobby over a few k$ that will teach you many things is a mistake but again that is IMO oh and btw if you are worring about wasting $s, too late this hobby will end up costing you several k$ in mistakes made no matter which direction you go, a more important question to ask is how manny people here are still using and only using their first mill/ lathe
 
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I'll chime in simply because my context is very similar to yours. I was/am a woodworker. I'm not quite sure how I started down this rabbit hole but This Old Tony has a lot of explaining to do :)
I first bought a mini-lathe because A) I could afford it B) it didn't take up a lot of space and C) I thought it would be a good machine to learn on.
I quickly found out I had bought a complete lemon and sold it. I kept my eyes peeled for a decent used machine. I managed to find a one owner South Bend 10K with a 48" bed. It was in pristine condition and I bought it. I learned a ton with that machine and only sold it because its horizontal drive system took up a huge amount of space in my small shop.

Shortly after finding the South Bend I found a used round column mill made in Taiwan. It was also in excellent condition. I added a 3-phase motor and a head alignment system so that I could raise and lower the head without losing X/Y position.

I sold both of these excellent machines in a fit of pique when I became very frustrated with how much room the took in my small shop.

I found that I missed having them so then bought a 12x24 Clausing 100 lathe that was also in excellent condition. I added a brand new PM30-class mill to the mix. Retooled both machines. The lathe lacked a quick change gear box so I was on the hunt for a lathe with one.
I lucked into a 1980's vintage 12x37 Taiwanese machine that needed a simple repair. I jumped on it, fixed it and could not be happier.
As @matthewsx mentioned I'm now converting the PM30 mill to CNC.

The upshot of all of this is that my journey from mini-lathe and round column mill gave me a good grounding in basic machine operations and the confidence to take on repairs and modifications to the machines I now own.

Lastly, moving machines into basements is not a trivial exercise. My 12x37 lathe is a solid 750-800 lbs. and I would not want to wrestle that into a basement. The mill would be easier as I could disassemble it into manageable pieces. If you have the opportunity to put larger machines in place during construction it could be a bonus.
 
I'm going to chime in here because I have the exact combo you mention, the 1228 and 728, in a very similar physical situation, ie. a basement shop with no easy access. Let me start off by saying I had a very narrow doorway to get through to get things into the shop but I did manage it. For the 1228, it actually took 4 guys to just carry it down the stairs and place it on the stand. The 728 was a two-man job that was a little more involve only because the dimensions front to back with the handwheel off were within a half inch of the door opening.

For what I'm doing, I can't see needing more machine than I have but that is something you would need to figure out for yourself.

From my point of view, the question is not whether to buy now or two wait, it's what do you think a couple years worth of experience is worth to you. Hypothetically, you but the 1228 and 728 now, get to use them for a few years and, when it's time for the new house, you can decide whether you want to sell them then and upgrade as you move into the new shop. At that point, you'll probably get about half your money back or so, leaving you with the question "Is having the tools to learn on and make things with for the next few years worth that much money to me?" Since you don't have any particular projects in mind, I would think the answer would be yes and having these would be a great way to figure out if you need more machine later down the line.
 
I have a very small (~10 square meter) basement shop with 110VAC power. Getting in there requires traversing stairs and at least three doorways. Because of this, and the limited space for storage, I've stuck with benchtop machines I can put on top of tool cabinets.

My lathe is a Boxford ME10, which is a British version of the South Bend 9A/10K. My mill was until very recently a Childs 0000 vertical, which is a stout but small machine with a 10" x 4" x 10" work envelope. I replaced the Childs with a PM-728-VT. I was able to disassemble both machines and get them into the shop largely without assistance using only a rolling cart.

I haven't had the 728 for long enough to really weigh in on it but I can tell you that the only complaint I had about the Childs was its size. It would handle steel just fine and my go-to end mill on that machine was a 1/2" solid carbide rougher. The Childs' rigidity and power were never limitations in the five years I owned it. Because of that, I didn't expect to get much more benefit from the 728 than the larger work envelope. However, I'm finding that its rigidity and accuracy are actually significantly higher than the Childs. All this to say, for a hobbyist with a basement shop, I don't think the benefits of the 833 over the 728 in power, envelope, and rigidity outweigh the benefits of the 728 in portability.

Likewise, the only real limitation of the ME10 lathe I've run into is the size of the through-hole in the spindle and I can work around that because it's got a 48" bed and a steady rest. In every other way, the machine has not been a limitation on my work.

I guess my suggestion is not to discount the utility and benefits of benchtop machines. They're not perfect but they're very good and my guess is that within reason you'll be able to do everything you want to do with them for years to come, even if it requires some compromises in speed and creativity in setups.
 
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