PM Lathe & Mill Selections - (Novice)

[Bell 407GXi]

Hey guys, I realize this can go a myriad of directions, but I value the input and opinions presented in this forum. Understanding that I’m very similar to a lot of novice hobbyists in that I come from a woodworking background & have always had the desire for metalworking. Given that I’m within 2-3 years of retirement, I figure it’s time to step up my interest & make some equipment selections.

Here’s where I am. My preference is to go with Precision Matthews based primarily on what I’ve been able to glean from the equipment details on their website along with multiple conversations I’ve had with PM Customer Support. Furthermore, last summer we made a day trip over to the PM warehouse outside Pittsburgh to view a couple of machines John arranged to display for us (PM-833TV mill & PM-1236T lathe). Both machines look really nice and seeing them in person was a great benefit after watching numerous videos & reading various forum threads. From a cost standpoint, I figure by adding most of the accessories for each machine & the delivery cost for both, I planned for about $19-$20K.

Let me restate, I’m a total novice with essentially zero machining background. I fully expect to receive feedback along the lines of these being far more machine than what I need, at least at this point. What do I plan to do with my metalworking desire? Just piddling around with whatever projects I would like to tinker with. This is a pure hobby for me. I’m not looking to do heavy, complex type things. So, when I put those facets in perspective, I step back to the PM-728VT mill & PM-1228VF-LB lathe. This is probably far more realistic for me while being plenty of machine for anything I can possibly think of doing. There are numerous videos of folks using those 2 machines with really good results (blondihacks, joseph higgins, others). I fully understand that it’s as much if not more the ability of the operator to run the machine versus just the machine’s overall capability & quality.

My primary complication is where I intend to place both machines. Ideally, they would go in the garage or ground level shop. Well, that may be the case in 3-5 years when we build a new house, but I don’t want to wait that long. Therefore, I will place them in my rather large basement shop, which is not walkout accessible. Unless I want to go through considerable disassembly, moving an 833 & 1236 to the basement is not practical for me whatsoever. I realize it’s been accomplished with a variety of methods, but I just don’t see that happening. Going with a 728 & 1228 (with some disassembly) is far more doable.

Again, quite honestly, a 728 & 1228 will likely be more than adequate for what I could ever need to do. Sure, the 833 & 1236 is a definite step up in numerous ways, they are an additional $4000-$5000. It’s more of a placement issue versus a cost concern. Plus, I can get the 728/1228 much sooner since they can go to the basement straightaway. The other thing I need to figure out is what support base I want to go with. There are several really good custom-made bases in the PM forum, primarily for the 833 (AllenV, kev-in) & 1236 (davidpbest).

So, I pose all this to the group with full expectation of a myriad of opinions. I likely answered my own questions here when I consider space availability, types of projects, timing, cost, etc. However, you guys are far more knowledgeable & experienced than I will ever be and therefore, I value the feedback.

Thanks!

Nick – Danville, IN

 

[markba633csi]

If you can afford that great, but you might could have just as much fun with old, cheap stuff. Plus you get the added fun of fixing them up and even customizing them. I can't buy or use anything without trying to fix it up or make it better. I take half the stuff I buy nowadays back to the store, there is so little quality anymore, foreign or domestic. Your mileage may vary yada yada and etc. and so forth
Enjoy the site!

 

[matthewsx]

Mark makes a good point. One strategy might be buying smaller used machines for now with an eye on upgrading when you build your new shop.

Metal Lathe - 10" - Logan - tools - by owner - sale - craigslist

Decent condition Logan 10" lathe -- this would be a good project for someone wanting to get a small lathe or for parts -- I bought this along with a couple of other lathes thinking I would part it...

indianapolis.craigslist.org

Not a bad starting point if it's still available.

John

 

[bhaack]

In my very limited experience, my rational was this when it came to machines.....
First, I know nothing, or very little, but I know enough having had some good mentors in the mechanical and industrial areas to know that the quality of the product is mostly in my, the operators, hands. With that thought in mind, when it comes to used vs new machines, I figured my lack of experience demanded that the error of machining must be found as much in my hands and least in the machine. That paradigm results in finding affordable new machines, because I can't have the machine introduce errors due to wear that I don't have the experience to remove on the fly. I haven't any idea if that's sound theory or not, but it is the theory I am running with when faced with the exact same question.

I bought a new 9x30 lathe and learned over 20 years of ownership basically by doing the job and having a very experienced amature machinist (a local farmer/mechanic) help me as i learned. Today, I have a used, but hopefully in good condition knee mill (9x49) that I will be learning on again. This time I think i might have enough knowledge built up by running the lathe I can remove some of the machine induced errors using the trial and error method.

We love fixing old stuff up and making it work again, yes. However, one must gain the ability to do that, and typically learning and being successful may be better accomplished by removing as much error from the system before ya start, and that points to the new machine side of the equation.

Thoughts?

Thanks~

 

[bhaack]

adding on after reading your post closer...

You'll want as big and heavy a machine as you can get. I'm sure others will tell ya better than I but weight is ridged and rigidity is key to good, nice parts.
My little baby 9x30 is an excellent example. I made some cam bushing and countershaft bushing installers years ago on this little lathe. I could make it hold tolerance and it gave me an excellent surface finish, and those installers did the job perfectly.... but, the lathe is so small and light, it took me days beyond what a 13x40 or 14x40 would have done it in, simply because I couldn't cut the shafting deep enough before the lathe ran out of rigidity and power. If I tried deeper cuts, like say more than .015 in cold rolled steel shaft with ccmt inserts (3/8th holder) , she'd take to chattering and the belt drive would slip. Another local farmer made some simlilar stuff in about a quarter of the time cause he had a real lathe to do it on. His was a 1920's flat belt drive, worn out southbend 16x80. He knows how to run it and he made some tight tolerance parts on it in half the time I did.

Hope this helps some.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

I think you are on the right track, PM is a good company, I have 2 of their machines and some other gear I bought from them as well. They give you a 3 year warranty and good support.

I would also suggest buying the loaded machines not the base machines if you can swing it and talk to them about installing matching DRO's, i.e. identical controls and display as this simplifies your life when moving between machines with a project.

I would also suggest picking up threading, Boring and turning tools for your lathe to get you started, PM sells some reasonably good tools, I did this so I could use the machine without digging through the net looking for stuff. Some guys like insert tooling and some like HSS tooling and some will tell you their preference is best, I have found that both types have their place and I like certain tools for certain jobs.

I have owned 4 mills now, three were old knee mills, one was a basket case which proved to be a mistake and the other 2 were reasonable while the forth is the Mill I have now which I purchased new from PM along with my first lathe. I know and understand the desires to save money and tinker but after 1 major rehab and 2 minor rehabs I decided I would buy new. I can tell you the Asian Machines require a little effort but it is generally simpler issues to deal with and PM will help; AND, if its major the warrantee will help as long as you do not let it sit in the crate for years before opening it and using it. Now I start the fight.... I personally would not recommend an older used machine for a beginner unless the beginner was already mechanically inclined and comfortable with storming the gates not knowing what awaits on the other side.

 

[coolidge]

I would WAIT until the new house is built. That you have to move the machines down a flight of stairs into a basement is a deal killer. You will likely choose smaller machines that make that possible, though still will be difficult and not without danger. Then later when the new house is built you will be looking to get into larger machines, spending money a second time not just on the machines but likely on tooling which is about as much as the cost of the machines. Lathe QCTP for example, come in several sizes, sized to the size of the lathe. So buy a QCTP and a bunch of tool holders for a small lathe, then have to buy the larger sizes later for a larger lathe. Pulling the trigger now means spending not twice the money but a lot more. Just being the voice of reason here. For the money you would save waiting, you could buy a lot more machine once vs two lessor machines twice.

 

[Bell 407GXi]

As I expected, already quite a bit of good information for me to digest, which is exactly what I am doing!

verbotenwhisky - Just to clarify your point on buying the "loaded machines not the base machines". Are you referring to the larger 833/1236 to include all the tooling & DROs listed with each model on the PM website OR if I do go with the smaller 728/1228 to also order all tooling & DROs as well? My response is that regardless or larger vs smaller, I plan to completely load up on all the tooling & DROs, i.e. not scrimp & save. John at PM helped me with all the suggested tools, vises, DROs, etc.

Thanks again guys for the continued feedback!

 

[bhaack]

Lathe QCTP for example, come in several sizes, sized to the size of the lathe. So buy a QCTP and a bunch of tool holders for a small lathe, then have to buy the larger sizes later for a larger lathe. Pulling the trigger now means spending not twice the money but a lot more.

I've got this exact problem now.
Current lathe has MT3 on both ends.
1340 has MT3 but 1.5" spindle bore, kinda small for my needs.
1440 has MT4, but 2" spindle bore, the size I'd rather have....
Neither will use my AXA tool post. Gotta go with BXA on both.

1440 is better for me, but now it's an extra 1000 bucks to replace all the tooling I already have.....

go figue. This likely means if I do get another / new lathe, it'll be a 13x40

 

[Bell 407GXi]

coolidge - I absolutely appreciate your response. My hesitation with purchasing anything thus far indicates to my underlying desire to purchase the larger & much nicer machines. I would get a heck of a lot more for the difference of $4-5K. Just the thought that I "could have had the bigger/nicer stuff" will eat at me if I choose the 728/1228 ahead of time. As far as the issue of moving to the basement is concerned, yeah that's a big deal as well. Gravity was my friend as we (the moving company guys) took my woodworking equipment downstairs. Even with that, I had to disassemble some of the larger items just to drop the weight of each item moved.