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PM-932M-PDF experience
- Thread starter Ratz
- Start date
Phil,</SPAN>
The post which describes my version of event was modified by forum moderator. It actually vent of the screen for some time, hence you likely did not see it.</SPAN>
Here is a re-post, Somewhat modified as not to offend anybody.
Now after your comment of replacement machine, I realize, that I am discussing an issue with </SPAN></SPAN>Precision Matthews Sales/Support.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
Let me make something clear. I like Matt of Quality Machine Tools, being in business myself I am fully aware what is he dealing with. Matt was courteous, generous and anything he does is done with integrity.</SPAN></SPAN>
Quality Machine Tools was contacted on February 2[SUP]nd</SPAN>[/SUP] with some of the issues discussed in my posting. Matt did acknowledge and took full responsibility of the difficulty. Various options were discussed and one of them was an upgrade to a more expensive mill. I repeat “upgrade to a more expensive mill” including free shipping.</SPAN></SPAN>
Now, please remember as I have stated, I live in Canada which complicates the matter. I had to pay brokerage fees and taxes when I imported the mill. Be aware that I paid all shipping costs within the US to my forwarding agent on the west coast. Also, returning the original mill to get an upgraded mill would have been at my cost. </SPAN></SPAN>
At no time was a replacement machine ever discussed as I had one PM-932M and at the time did not think much of this machine. Matt did offer to replace the feed box to see if it will fix the issue. Matt also offered to replace the spindle DRO.</SPAN></SPAN>
When I asked for complete gear head under warranty there was not much response.</SPAN></SPAN>
Today April 16[SUP]th</SPAN>[/SUP] (two and a half month later) someone by name Ray (</SPAN></SPAN>Precision Matthews Sales/Support) informs</SPAN></SPAN> me on a forum (that I took the initiative to join and share my experience on) that the parts were expressed shipped from the factory.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
That is a new standard of Express Shipping! Two and a half months later you get notified on a forum that a part is being shipped to you.</SPAN></SPAN>
Adding insult to injury is being told the replacement was offered, when I could not even get a new gear head.</SPAN></SPAN>
You Sir have no******** at all. You and I have nothing further to discuss. I will let the individuals on the forum make up their own minds.</SPAN></SPAN>
I hope this satisfies your question.
Cheers,
Radek
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2010
- Messages
- 7,222
:nono:
NOTICE
As forum owner, I am exercising my perogative and re-opening this thread.
I am soft-deleting the offending posts that violated the forum terms of service. (http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345)
The review shall stay, minus any edits required to bring it within conformity with the rules against disparaging this forum.
One of the reasons that I never allowed advertising on this forum was that I wanted people to feel free to address problems with products without fear of inhibition or retribution.
Reviews of products that are constructive and accurate are welcomed and encouraged. How else can manufacturers improve their products?
After witnessing a manufacturer on another forum throw a fit and pull his advertising when members reviewed his products, I decided that this was not the type of interaction that would be permitted and/or encouraged on this forum. Not while I own the forum.
However, when a fellow who is a new member and is in the web advertising business accuses us of covering up the truth, that is just a little bit too self-serving, since we do not permit web advertising, and that impacts on his bottom line. Let's be honest about who has the real motivation to disparage this forum. This behavior also violates the rules. It is also inaccurate, to say the least. That member will not return here. Being a "friendly" forum means that people follow the rules and act respectfully towards one another. That includes being respectful to the forum and staff. Not censored or stifled, but respectful. That means refraining from making false accusations that we will "cover up" the truth. That will not happen during my tenure as owner of this forum.
Effective immediately, I am going to impose a rule as follows. Accurate reviews will continue to be welcomed. The manufacturer will be permitted to post a detailed response or responses that address the criticism. When the poster and manufacturer reach an impasse in terms of resolution, the discussion shall then STOP to avoid disparaging conduct that occurs due to mutual frustration. They can continue their discussions in private, of course. This rule shall also apply in the Vendor Forums paid for by a manufacturer. Consumers may post accurate reviews and/or criticisms there. When an impasse results, the discussion will STOP to avoid disparagement of any kind.
As far as the OP, until he decided to make accusations against the forum, I saw no problem with the review.
When you are in the manufacturing business, you cannot please everyone. That is the nature of the beast.
I want to insure that this accusatory behavior does not re-occur, because if it does, there will be consequences.
However, posting disparaging comments AFTER being warned by a moderator not to do so is unacceptable, and that will result in punishment if done again.
If anyone has a problem remembering the rules of this forum, they are posted here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345
You agreed to them when you joined.
NOTICE
As forum owner, I am exercising my perogative and re-opening this thread.
I am soft-deleting the offending posts that violated the forum terms of service. (http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345)
The review shall stay, minus any edits required to bring it within conformity with the rules against disparaging this forum.
One of the reasons that I never allowed advertising on this forum was that I wanted people to feel free to address problems with products without fear of inhibition or retribution.
Reviews of products that are constructive and accurate are welcomed and encouraged. How else can manufacturers improve their products?
After witnessing a manufacturer on another forum throw a fit and pull his advertising when members reviewed his products, I decided that this was not the type of interaction that would be permitted and/or encouraged on this forum. Not while I own the forum.
However, when a fellow who is a new member and is in the web advertising business accuses us of covering up the truth, that is just a little bit too self-serving, since we do not permit web advertising, and that impacts on his bottom line. Let's be honest about who has the real motivation to disparage this forum. This behavior also violates the rules. It is also inaccurate, to say the least. That member will not return here. Being a "friendly" forum means that people follow the rules and act respectfully towards one another. That includes being respectful to the forum and staff. Not censored or stifled, but respectful. That means refraining from making false accusations that we will "cover up" the truth. That will not happen during my tenure as owner of this forum.
Effective immediately, I am going to impose a rule as follows. Accurate reviews will continue to be welcomed. The manufacturer will be permitted to post a detailed response or responses that address the criticism. When the poster and manufacturer reach an impasse in terms of resolution, the discussion shall then STOP to avoid disparaging conduct that occurs due to mutual frustration. They can continue their discussions in private, of course. This rule shall also apply in the Vendor Forums paid for by a manufacturer. Consumers may post accurate reviews and/or criticisms there. When an impasse results, the discussion will STOP to avoid disparagement of any kind.
As far as the OP, until he decided to make accusations against the forum, I saw no problem with the review.
When you are in the manufacturing business, you cannot please everyone. That is the nature of the beast.
I want to insure that this accusatory behavior does not re-occur, because if it does, there will be consequences.
However, posting disparaging comments AFTER being warned by a moderator not to do so is unacceptable, and that will result in punishment if done again.
If anyone has a problem remembering the rules of this forum, they are posted here: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=14345
You agreed to them when you joined.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
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- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
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- 1,531
I know I am new here but definitely not new to forums so I can appreciate the rules as well as proper conduct among the forum members. I did however find the OP's review of the machine to be honest and informative (although I hope I don't experience the same thing when mine arrives).
I know the design has been around for many years and is nothing new but in all of my research this was probably the only real negative review that I had seen. I can appreciate someone who is anal about his tools/equipment as I am the same way. That said, I also know that it is not a $75k dollar mill either so any and all feedback is appreciated.
I would want someone to give an honest review and not feel intimidated so as to inform other potential buyers and to avoid any possible surprises. I appreciate those who do take the time to honesty and informatively review a product.
I don't, however, appreciate the derogatory or slanderous manner in which some people feel they have to throw out there on a public venue.
Mike.
I know the design has been around for many years and is nothing new but in all of my research this was probably the only real negative review that I had seen. I can appreciate someone who is anal about his tools/equipment as I am the same way. That said, I also know that it is not a $75k dollar mill either so any and all feedback is appreciated.
I would want someone to give an honest review and not feel intimidated so as to inform other potential buyers and to avoid any possible surprises. I appreciate those who do take the time to honesty and informatively review a product.
I don't, however, appreciate the derogatory or slanderous manner in which some people feel they have to throw out there on a public venue.
Mike.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2013
- Messages
- 34
Like everyone else on the forum, I am glad to hear criticisms as wells as praises. Even if I disagree with the criticisms, it helps me (and, I believe, others) to know what to look for. Oddly, it was a lengthy diatribe about "Chinese junk" on another forum that got me interested in PM machines.
However, I question the wisdom and justification for trying to rebuild a brand new machine before you speak to the manufacturer/supplier, or even after you speak to the manufacturer and before the problem is resolved. While I may well be the least knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to machining, I may be one of the more knowledgeable when it comes to the uniform commercial code, warranties, etc. (That is what I do for a living.) The modifications described in the original post will void any warranty from any manufacturer. You can imagine what sort of response you would get from Ford/GMC/Chrysler/etc. if you bought a new car, didn't like the way it was built and then milled the heads, modified the electrical system, changed the suspension and then, when that didn't work, demand that the manufacturer either fix the problems (which you can no longer even prove existed because you "fixed" them) or give you a new car.
However, I question the wisdom and justification for trying to rebuild a brand new machine before you speak to the manufacturer/supplier, or even after you speak to the manufacturer and before the problem is resolved. While I may well be the least knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to machining, I may be one of the more knowledgeable when it comes to the uniform commercial code, warranties, etc. (That is what I do for a living.) The modifications described in the original post will void any warranty from any manufacturer. You can imagine what sort of response you would get from Ford/GMC/Chrysler/etc. if you bought a new car, didn't like the way it was built and then milled the heads, modified the electrical system, changed the suspension and then, when that didn't work, demand that the manufacturer either fix the problems (which you can no longer even prove existed because you "fixed" them) or give you a new car.
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09kevin
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Shouldn't an employee of the manufacture identify themselves as such when replying to questions or reviews about their machines? I would like to know if I am getting the opinion of a machine owner or an employee of the company.
Kevin
Kevin
Just to defend my position, I would like to answer to your post questioning my wisdom and justification for the modifications.</SPAN>
As stated during this post Matt at Quality Machine Tools was contacted on February 2[SUP]nd</SPAN>[/SUP] (this year about 2 weeks after I received the mill). I am sure he was horrified to see the pictures I provided.</SPAN>
During this time Matt send me an email not to worry all will be taken care of. Matt was travelling and our conversation took place few days later. Hence there was some time on my hands to dismantle the suspected part and clean it.</SPAN>
From my experience dealing with Matt, as I purchased a lathe from him few years back, there was never any issue doing your own work. After all you do not ship the machinery back to the vendor, rather your are being send a part and replace it. I am sure Matt does a shopcalls if the machine is in close by area, but be aware I am on the West Coast of Canada, likely 3,000 miles away. I am not even sure how would serious warranty issue work.</SPAN>
By the time Matt got back to me few days later I had the feedbox stripped, cleaned, diagnosed the problem, fabricated the shim and got the mill working.</SPAN>
When the conversation took place, Matt had no issue with me cleaning the feedbox. If you read my post the next difficulty now was the play in the ACME thread which caused the issue that I was unable to plunge cut with any accuracy.</SPAN>
By that time I had some idea about the spring system and bounced the idea of Matt. Matt likely sensed that I am reasonably handy and did not mind me doing it. Being a journeyman mechanic in my sixties, and being able to work on fine European five speed gearbox, may have something to do with it. Working on a simple gears in a milling machine is like going back to stone age.</SPAN>
He was even liberal enough to say if I did not make any huge holes so the machine was resalable he would still take it back in exchange for an upgrade to a higher cost mill. So I have not proceed to these modifications without vendors knowledge. Going for different machine at the time was considered, unfortunately I have spent additional $3 to 4 thousand on tooling and dishing out extra money did not go well with my accounting department.</SPAN>
Matt certainly did not feel good about the feed box being machined 0.030” under to cause pressure on the gears. I on the other hand still seeing the sand in the feedbox said, I would like the complete new gear head. Maybe I should have pushed harder, but that option was not available. I was assured that the gear head is assembled in different plant and there will be no issues. the agreement ended with me receiving new feed box casting and few other bits and pieces.</SPAN>
I also was to receive two seal as the spindle started to leak.</SPAN>
I went ahead with my spring experiments and felt I was getting somewhere. When my prototype worked and I achieved ability to perform a milling operation I expected in the first place, I knew then that the mill is a keeper. I then moved onto a final product seen in the pictures. Having said that, all the modifications are fully reversible and if I would put it back the way it was received, I am confident that even the owner of the same mill would not noticed. I am also confident should owner of the same mill try my machine he/she would not want to go back to theirs, unless of course they do simple milling.</SPAN>
I called Matt from time to time. I even ordered 8” Vertex rotary table from him. Nice piece of gear, if anyone is looking for one (one of the nice Asian tools, and yes it was disassembled to the last piece, but did not need to be). But that one is made in Taiwan, I highly recommend it.</SPAN>
Seals arrived and I dismantled portion of the gear head. Some of you may have seen the post, I thought it was a good one, unfortunately it got removed for my inappropriate behavior of insulting one of the long standing member of the forum, for which I am truly sorry as it was totally unintentional.</SPAN>
Now with the mill working to my satisfaction, I started thinking. What does the thee year warranty really consist of???, I cleaned the machine of the sand, I machined few washers, figured out how it all works, dismantled gear head and replaced the seals. Somehow I felt and new that I got the raw end of the stick. Pity party? At my age, no way.</SPAN>
I called Matt, believe it or not, it was not about the mill, but about some Toolmex holders for my lathe he is got on his website. After all he is a Toolmex dealer as they do not sell directly. I left two phone call messages, I left the message with his helper, I left message with Nicole, it’s been I would say at least three weeks and I did not hear from Matt.</SPAN>
I asked myself, what if I was still waiting for my parts, thee month with the machinery down, he does not know that I am now happy with the mill, he does not know it is fixed, because I did not tell anyone. Not returning phone calls, specialy if he knows of my machine problems. That is not a good customer service. What happened to you Matt?</SPAN>
Leagle, as experienced warranty person, what is your view on this case? I know I perhaps gave you more information then it was necessary, but I like everyone to have all the facts.</SPAN>
I am not happy that I got carried away to the point that posting was terminated, I am not happy that I likely made Ray angry. But put yourself in my place, I still did not get any parts, I still did not get any reply from Quality Machine Tools. What I got was answer from someone I did not know is associated with Quality Machine Tools, telling me that I was offered a free replacement mill and parts are being shipped by Express Delivery which sounded like “It’s been only a week you are well taken care off.</SPAN>
Well, I will leave it at that. That was a hard work. I would rather change the seals on my mill again.</SPAN>
Cheers to all</SPAN>
Radek</SPAN>
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2012
- Messages
- 5,596
Hello and Good Morning...
The list administrators do not want discussions getting out of control and I'll do everything possible to accommodate that. Everything in this message is written with the best intention of helping and resolving the matter -and for the record, I've spent countless hours attempting to help folks with these types of machines regardless of who the manufacturer is.
Until yesterday, my Avatar signature clearly identified my association with Precision Matthews. Yesterday, our administrators set new rules about signatures which I gladly comply with. My basic signature line always signs-off with simply "Ray" because, A) I'm a down-to-earth person and B) I make efforts to help folks regardless of what brand of equipment is involved and this is offered without any ties to company association. FWIW: After being a happy camper with Matt's machines for about 5-6 years, I recently started selling/distributing/supporting them through my fabrication company. I also sell the machines to numerous other professional shops, training institutes etc. Ultimately, I hope to gather the materials and literature to place an Ad here in the vendor advertising section. Once that happens, I will abide by any rules of how to identify myself. I will not proceed with that advertising plan or continue to sell PM machines if it means I cannot still be a general contributor to this forum.
The issue of Warranty is simple. Machines come with a specified term warranty that covers non-normal-wear replacement parts. The warranty does not cover any expense in trouble-shooting, removing or replacing any parts. In such cases, Matt or myself will spend as much time as possible by phone or email to assist. Significant modification of parts is discouraged without speaking to Matt. Folks can modify their machines w/o damaging their warranty as long as it simple in nature like converting a single speed motor to a factory-like VFD variable speed upgrade. Properly self-installing DROs is fine too provided the user does not carelessly drill holes (such as drilling into a support bolt, alignment pin, lubrication channel etc). If the user runs the motor at 120 Hz and sends a gear through the casting, or crashes the machine, that's a different matter... FWIW, many people here have done mods to machines they shouldn't have -and I end-up on the phone trying to fix the mess w/o getting Matt or the factory involved.
In regard to swapping-out just the head... that is a sticky wicket. Just like a firearm or engine block etc, that component has a stamped serial number and believe it or not, it's easier to swap-out the whole machine. Matt is obligated to have a trusting relationship with the factory... In other terms, he can bend the rules -but not break them.
I'm not going to comment about the exchange and upgrade offers that were made as I understand you and Matt reached an agreement and I ask that you discuss those matter with Matt.
As for grit in the gearbox and semi-exposed areas. It's a sore issue with all chicom machines. I'm told that at one time, Matt cleaned this up but, the feedback was immediate... Customers thought they were delivered a used, second-hand machine because, the paint seals were cracked and sometimes the guys would leave some fingerprints behind. At one time, Matt actually tested lathes by cutting metal and when people saw a few random chips on the machine, they wanted their money back -thinking they'd been sold a used machine.
Finally, the side gearbox cover is not a normal factory replacement part. We've never had to replace such a thing and the warranty aspect of the factory in China needs to obtain the part from the production line. It is enroute and should be arriving DHL soon. FWIW, before I was officially associated with Matt, I purchased a PM45 CNC mill (my third major piece of PM equipment that supports my business). One of the buttons on the hand pendant arrived crushed -it obviously got bounced around in shipping. I noticed this a few weeks ago, a replacement is being ordered -and it will take a while to arrive...
As far as getting in contact with Matt... He's very busy -so busy, he's asked me to handle some of the workload...
I hope this situation does not become further inflamed and I do not plan to post more about this. And finally, I have no hard feelings about anything that was said.
Ray
The list administrators do not want discussions getting out of control and I'll do everything possible to accommodate that. Everything in this message is written with the best intention of helping and resolving the matter -and for the record, I've spent countless hours attempting to help folks with these types of machines regardless of who the manufacturer is.
Until yesterday, my Avatar signature clearly identified my association with Precision Matthews. Yesterday, our administrators set new rules about signatures which I gladly comply with. My basic signature line always signs-off with simply "Ray" because, A) I'm a down-to-earth person and B) I make efforts to help folks regardless of what brand of equipment is involved and this is offered without any ties to company association. FWIW: After being a happy camper with Matt's machines for about 5-6 years, I recently started selling/distributing/supporting them through my fabrication company. I also sell the machines to numerous other professional shops, training institutes etc. Ultimately, I hope to gather the materials and literature to place an Ad here in the vendor advertising section. Once that happens, I will abide by any rules of how to identify myself. I will not proceed with that advertising plan or continue to sell PM machines if it means I cannot still be a general contributor to this forum.
The issue of Warranty is simple. Machines come with a specified term warranty that covers non-normal-wear replacement parts. The warranty does not cover any expense in trouble-shooting, removing or replacing any parts. In such cases, Matt or myself will spend as much time as possible by phone or email to assist. Significant modification of parts is discouraged without speaking to Matt. Folks can modify their machines w/o damaging their warranty as long as it simple in nature like converting a single speed motor to a factory-like VFD variable speed upgrade. Properly self-installing DROs is fine too provided the user does not carelessly drill holes (such as drilling into a support bolt, alignment pin, lubrication channel etc). If the user runs the motor at 120 Hz and sends a gear through the casting, or crashes the machine, that's a different matter... FWIW, many people here have done mods to machines they shouldn't have -and I end-up on the phone trying to fix the mess w/o getting Matt or the factory involved.
In regard to swapping-out just the head... that is a sticky wicket. Just like a firearm or engine block etc, that component has a stamped serial number and believe it or not, it's easier to swap-out the whole machine. Matt is obligated to have a trusting relationship with the factory... In other terms, he can bend the rules -but not break them.
I'm not going to comment about the exchange and upgrade offers that were made as I understand you and Matt reached an agreement and I ask that you discuss those matter with Matt.
As for grit in the gearbox and semi-exposed areas. It's a sore issue with all chicom machines. I'm told that at one time, Matt cleaned this up but, the feedback was immediate... Customers thought they were delivered a used, second-hand machine because, the paint seals were cracked and sometimes the guys would leave some fingerprints behind. At one time, Matt actually tested lathes by cutting metal and when people saw a few random chips on the machine, they wanted their money back -thinking they'd been sold a used machine.
Finally, the side gearbox cover is not a normal factory replacement part. We've never had to replace such a thing and the warranty aspect of the factory in China needs to obtain the part from the production line. It is enroute and should be arriving DHL soon. FWIW, before I was officially associated with Matt, I purchased a PM45 CNC mill (my third major piece of PM equipment that supports my business). One of the buttons on the hand pendant arrived crushed -it obviously got bounced around in shipping. I noticed this a few weeks ago, a replacement is being ordered -and it will take a while to arrive...
As far as getting in contact with Matt... He's very busy -so busy, he's asked me to handle some of the workload...
I hope this situation does not become further inflamed and I do not plan to post more about this. And finally, I have no hard feelings about anything that was said.
Ray