I have a no. 12 van norman for sale and a customer asked what year it is. As per the normal information using the google on the internet machine there is a page that lists serial number info. It suggests the ser # should read 12-XXXX but also in the fine print it says there are some machines that were marked differently. My machine is marked with a 13XXX format . I did see some posts on a few sites that came up from the search saying they had similar numbers and their "books" recognized this number format. Does anyone have any information other than what is online?
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No. 12 Van normal serial numbers.
- Thread starter jamie76x
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I've never heard of a 13XXX serial number on a Van Norman No. 12. The serial number is stamped on the front surface of the vertical flat way for the knee, at the top. Sometimes it's 12-XXXX, sometimes it's XXXX-12, and sometimes it's just XXXX. XXXX should be between 5000 and 9999. Apparently in 1954 they ran out of serial numbers and added another digit, i.e. 10000, but I don't think they got to 13000. Can you post a photo of the machine?
Cal
The machine is a no 12, Its right in the casting. The numbers are in the normal spot on the top right hand side of the way, the numbers just don't make make sence. I have run into a hand full of these machines before and all had the normal number format. I have read about other machines with the same 5 digit number, but can not find info on how to tell how old it is.
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whatever.
Don't get pissy Cal...... You replied to my post with the same exact information that I provided in the original post. Sorry you can't be the hero on this post.
If anyone has any information other than what is in the original post, then please share.
If anyone has any information other than what is in the original post, then please share.
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Easy fellas....Cal is one of the most knowledgeable people around on this mill.
The best written source I know for the numbers is Jim Kasunich's site:
http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Serial.htm
From Jim's site:
The model number and serial number of a Van Norman mill are usually stamped in the front face of the column, at the top. For example, my mill is stamped "12-5751". The "12" means that it is a model #12 mill. The "5751" is the serial number. If I run down the #12 column of the table, I see that the last mill made in 1940 was number 5443, and the last one made in 1941 was 5903. Since 5751 is between those two numbers, I know that my mill was made somewhere around the middle of 1941. Not all mills use the same format for the serial numbers - an owner of an older #12 has informed me that his mill is marked 5074-12, (serial number first, then model number). It is possible that some mills don't include the model number at all, or that they have additional digits before or after the serial number to specify options, etc.
Another very knowledgeable source is Repair Parts Inc.
http://www.repair-parts-inc.com/
Could you post a photo of the serial number? They appear all over the machine including the tool tray, ram bed, etc.
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I'm back after a long absence. I just picked up a Van Norman No. 12 mill with no motor and I've run into the same serial number issue Jamie76X had. My serial number is clearly a 13 series number.
I picked it up for scrap value with free delivery. It has a lovely brush paint job, mostly on the previously painted areas of the machine. The electrical cabinet contains equipment that will work on 60, 50, and 25 hz. The drive motor for the table is still present and is 3 phase, 60hz.
I have two .pdfs of the operating and parts manuals that have no dates. One shows a pretty art deco styled head with a fairly rectangular access plate, and one shows a blocky head with a T shaped access plate. My mill is the latter style. Does this help in dating the mill?
I received a number of collets and two arbors, and the round overarm bar, but no arbor support. This is where I see another difference from the manuals. Both show cuts in the face of the spindle for drive keys, and mine does not have these. I notice that the collets (Hardinge !) have slots for a key and the spindle has a slot for a key. Is it normal to put a square key in the slot? This is more for curiosity at this point, as I'm a long way out from running the machine.
It sat for 30 years unused in the back of a garage knifemaking shop, and is absolutely filthy. When turned by hand, the gears and bearings feel fine, but there are issues with the saddle moving. It is extremely stiff.
I picked it up for scrap value with free delivery. It has a lovely brush paint job, mostly on the previously painted areas of the machine. The electrical cabinet contains equipment that will work on 60, 50, and 25 hz. The drive motor for the table is still present and is 3 phase, 60hz.
I have two .pdfs of the operating and parts manuals that have no dates. One shows a pretty art deco styled head with a fairly rectangular access plate, and one shows a blocky head with a T shaped access plate. My mill is the latter style. Does this help in dating the mill?
I received a number of collets and two arbors, and the round overarm bar, but no arbor support. This is where I see another difference from the manuals. Both show cuts in the face of the spindle for drive keys, and mine does not have these. I notice that the collets (Hardinge !) have slots for a key and the spindle has a slot for a key. Is it normal to put a square key in the slot? This is more for curiosity at this point, as I'm a long way out from running the machine.
It sat for 30 years unused in the back of a garage knifemaking shop, and is absolutely filthy. When turned by hand, the gears and bearings feel fine, but there are issues with the saddle moving. It is extremely stiff.
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Can you post photos of the differences you noted and of the mill generally?
A 5-digit serial number is probably a later machine, but your description of the head suggests maybe not, as the blocky head with a T-shaped plate preceded the football-shaped head design.
The spindle should have a filed-down Woodruff key in it (there's a drawing in the Files section here showing the dimensions), that's normal and expected for the VN C collet system. I still need to make one for my mill too. Additionally, the spindle should have two square-ish drive dogs on either side of it also, for driving horizontal arbors, shell mills, etc.
A 5-digit serial number is probably a later machine, but your description of the head suggests maybe not, as the blocky head with a T-shaped plate preceded the football-shaped head design.
The spindle should have a filed-down Woodruff key in it (there's a drawing in the Files section here showing the dimensions), that's normal and expected for the VN C collet system. I still need to make one for my mill too. Additionally, the spindle should have two square-ish drive dogs on either side of it also, for driving horizontal arbors, shell mills, etc.
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Sorry about the delay. I am really mystified about the spindle. There's no provision for drive dogs, and some spalling at the pin wrench hole. Thank you for the lead about the key. Some of the tooling has provision for driving from dogs, some doesn't. Progress is going to be slow now, as winter is setting in and it's in an unheated garage.
I've been working on the drive system. I have issues with the replacement motor, and the upper bearing warms on the higher speeds. So after the drive, it's gearbox and spindle work.
Here's the head.
I've been working on the drive system. I have issues with the replacement motor, and the upper bearing warms on the higher speeds. So after the drive, it's gearbox and spindle work.
Here's the head.
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- Apr 13, 2022
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Can you post some photos zoomed out, showing the whole mill? That'd help with dating. You might start your own thread also, if you want.
Based on these two photos, I suspect your mill (or at least its head) is of a very early VN12 design. Refer to the 1940 VN12 brochure, the bottom image of page 8. I see three things that match yours: no drive dogs, oil cups for the top and bottom bearings, and a less rounded overall body. Compare to my own VN12 dating from (probably early) 1942, which has drive dogs, no oil cups, and a slightly different body design overall (the clamping bolts are inset into the body at approximately the same level as the access door).
Also of note, your serial number is XXXXX, whereas the more typical VN12/22/etc.-era numbering is 12-XXXX or XXXX-12, with the dash in the middle. This might mean yours predates that numbering scheme, and they were just numbering things in plain numeral order since they started serial numbering in the late 1800s or early 1900s maybe.
Based on these two photos, I suspect your mill (or at least its head) is of a very early VN12 design. Refer to the 1940 VN12 brochure, the bottom image of page 8. I see three things that match yours: no drive dogs, oil cups for the top and bottom bearings, and a less rounded overall body. Compare to my own VN12 dating from (probably early) 1942, which has drive dogs, no oil cups, and a slightly different body design overall (the clamping bolts are inset into the body at approximately the same level as the access door).
Also of note, your serial number is XXXXX, whereas the more typical VN12/22/etc.-era numbering is 12-XXXX or XXXX-12, with the dash in the middle. This might mean yours predates that numbering scheme, and they were just numbering things in plain numeral order since they started serial numbering in the late 1800s or early 1900s maybe.
