New to Me VN12 in Rochester NY

[Wheels17]

I'd started asking questions about the serial number on this mill and kind of polluted the thread with other questions. So, as Tekym suggested, I'm starting over talking about my mill.
Here's what I said originally:


I'm back after a long absence. I just picked up a Van Norman No. 12 mill with no motor and I've run into the same serial number issue Jamie76X had. My serial number is clearly a 13 series number.



I picked it up for scrap value with free delivery. It has a lovely brush paint job, mostly on the previously painted areas of the machine. The electrical cabinet contains equipment that will work on 60, 50, and 25 hz. The drive motor for the table is still present and is 3 phase, 60hz.
I have two .pdfs of the operating and parts manuals that have no dates. One shows a pretty art deco styled head with a fairly rectangular access plate, and one shows a blocky head with a T shaped access plate. My mill is the latter style. Does this help in dating the mill?

I received a number of collets and two arbors, and the round overarm bar, but no arbor support. This is where I see another difference from the manuals. Both show cuts in the face of the spindle for drive keys, and mine does not have these. I notice that the collets (Hardinge !) have slots for a key and the spindle has a slot for a key. Is it normal to put a square key in the slot? This is more for curiosity at this point, as I'm a long way out from running the machine.

It sat for 30 years unused in the back of a garage knifemaking shop, and is absolutely filthy. When turned by hand, the gears and bearings feel fine, but there are issues with the saddle moving. It is extremely stiff.

My plan is to get the drive working before I worry about the table and knee.

Here are the "as received" pictures:

 

[woodchucker]

Damn, that's a stout small footprint machine. If you can find the parts you need it would be nice to restore.

 

[Nutfarmer]

Van Norman mills are good machines. Collets can be hard to find as they were proprietary.

 

[tekym]

Two other things I see now that suggest yours is an early VN12: The model number is cast into the front of the base, and the rounded stud style of your table stops. These both match the 1940 sales brochure.

In my 1942 mill, the front face of the base is flat with no model number cast into it, the model number is instead cast into the left side of the ram.

Your table stops are rounded studs with a wrench hex on the end, like the catalog. You should have 3, not 2 - one for each end, fixed in place via holes in the table T slot to prevent overtravel when feeding, and one adjustable one in the middle to set for the particular job. It's very common not to have all 3, and yours are an easy shape to replicate. On mine and later 12s, the fixed table stops are wedges with a hole in them that a screw goes through into the aforementioned T slot holes, and the movable stop has a taper on both sides so that it can trigger the feed stop regardless of which direction you're feeding.

 

[tekym]

Also, for tracking purposes, OP's other photos and original discussion: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/no-12-van-normal-serial-numbers.20099/post-1158891

 

[Wheels17]

A continuation of the discussion. tekym replied:

Can you post photos of the differences you noted and of the mill generally?

A 5-digit serial number is probably a later machine, but your description of the head suggests maybe not, as the blocky head with a T-shaped plate preceded the football-shaped head design.

The spindle should have a filed-down Woodruff key in it (there's a drawing in the Files section here showing the dimensions), that's normal and expected for the VN C collet system. I still need to make one for my mill too. Additionally, the spindle should have two square-ish drive dogs on either side of it also, for driving horizontal arbors, shell mills, etc.

In response to that I provided this information:

I am really mystified about the spindle. There's no provision for drive dogs, and some spalling at the pin wrench hole. Thank you for the lead about the key. Some of the tooling has provision for driving from dogs, some doesn't. Progress is going to be slow now, as winter is setting in and it's in an unheated garage.

I've been working on the drive system. I have issues with the replacement motor, and the upper bearing warms on the higher speeds. So after the drive, it's gearbox and spindle work.





Tekym replied:

Based on these two photos, I suspect your mill (or at least its head) is of a very early VN12 design. Refer to the 1940 VN12 brochure, the bottom image of page 8. I see three things that match yours: no drive dogs, oil cups for the top and bottom bearings, and a less rounded overall body. Compare to my own VN12 dating from (probably early) 1942, which has drive dogs, no oil cups, and a slightly different body design overall (the clamping bolts are inset into the body at approximately the same level as the access door).

Also of note, your serial number is XXXXX, whereas the more typical VN12/22/etc.-era numbering is 12-XXXX or XXXX-12, with the dash in the middle. This might mean yours predates that numbering scheme, and they were just numbering things in plain numeral order since they started serial numbering in the late 1800s or early 1900s maybe.

I believe that he's correct. I can find illustrations of at least 3 types of VN12 heads. I think the VN literature shows the publication date with a numbering scheme. I have a .pdf of an early sales brochure that has the notation "1500-1-40-JCO" that looks exactly like my head. I'm assuming that is January 1940.

A brochure that I think is dated 5-42 also shows this style head.

A manual that has a note on one page "11-7-44 RLF" shows a different head, similar to the earlier ones, but with buried locking bolts. The grease cups have been replaced with grease fittings, but the head is similar to the original style head.


The next manual I have looks to have a date on one of the pages "(indecipherable) 1952" and shows the tapered head:




Another clue to age is the spindle gearbox style. There was a big discussion on Practical Machinist about the changes in the gearbox.