My Biggest Pet Peeve AS A Hobby Machinist

[mmcmdl]

WE all need to become salesmen , engineers , machinists , mechanics , toolmakers and technicians . We'll have all angles covered .

Don't complain about it , take advantage of it .

 

[7milesup]

The other day, I tried to fix a DeWalt battery charger, and I found it was held together not just with Torx fasteners, which is offensive enough, but with special tamper-resistant Torxes with little nipples in the sockets to push tools out. These are not cheaper to make than regular Torxes or Phillips screws, and they don't make assembly easier, so the intent is obvious.

Torx fasteners are awesome. Yes, the security Torx can frustrate a person that doesn't have the proper bit handy, but "security bits" are available everywhere, even Harbor Freight has them. The intent is to keep the consumer out of the battery charger because, most likely, there is nothing in there that the average consumer can fix. It has nothing to do with cost.

 

[Chips O'Toole]

So you agree with me, except for your enthusiasm for Torx fasteners.

I don't agree that Torxes are awesome. I probably have 200 items in my house that are held together with Phillips screws, and they work just as well without requiring anyone to buy special tools.

The biggest problem with the super-nanny extra-nipple Torxes is that they may force you to buy sets of super-nanny tools. I have every tamper-proof bit known to mankind, but bits are thick. They won't go into every hole a nanny Torx occupies, so you have to get a dedicated tool with a thin shaft.

I have an Echo saw full of Torx screws. There are some a bit can just barely get to. There is no reason for using them. Hex screws would work fine. Unfortunately, Echo uses weird threads, so you can't just go to Ebay and buy hex screws to replace everything.

It's really amazing how many weird fastener tools I own. I also have every conceivable tool to open a tablet or phone. The police should have me on a list. And virtually none of the fasteners I can remove actually need to be exotic.

 

[wayback machine]

From my understanding, Torx drive fasteners are easier for robots to assemble - But that's a whole other subject.........

 

[feral_cat]

I need to make a nut for my taper attachement. Really weird size. 7/16x14 (I think)
I've been wondering how I could cut internal threads on such a beast, 'cause the hole is smaller than my internal threading bar.
I'd say $500 is probably what it would cost them to make such a one-off.

I made it with a single point thread mill on a CNC. So, a helical toolpath. Easy, but sometimes you have to iterate to get the threads right.

 

[feral_cat]

From my understanding, Torx drive fasteners are easier for robots to assemble - But that's a whole other subject.........

More torque. Don't cam out like phillips. Fairly easy to engage (6 angles). Hex keys can round over when over torqued and ruin the bit and every fastener it sees after that.. I love the old #2 phillips for everyday use because it will stay on the end of the bit. Pretty much everything else it one hand on the fastener, one on the drill, so two hands for everything.

 

[7milesup]

none of the fasteners I can remove actually need to be exotic.

None of those fasteners are exotic, just not a Phillips standard that you may be used to.
I have thrown out nearly every Phillps screw I had in my shop. I haven't used them in years. The one that stumped me a few years ago was a double hex screw, but once I figured that out it was no big deal.

 

[RJSakowski]

Regarding junk piles, I'll tell you about some local government hypocrisy.

I don't have garbage pickup. Here, we take our garbage to "recycling centers," which are places where there are several dumpsters. There is one for paper. There is one for metal. One for yard waste. Tires, appliances, and general garbage are represented, and there is a big open area for furniture.

Okay, now, remember this is the "Recycling Center." Note the first word.

At the recycling center, it is a crime to remove anything and take it with you. Nice furniture that could be refinished goes into a claw truck. I saw a nice Workmate the other day in the metal area. Gone. Two days ago, I saw a neat Craftsman steel toolbox with little drawers, in great shape. Gone. Nearby, there was a steel cabinet about 6 feet tall. Very well made. I guess it would cost $600 or more new. Gone.

The steel in the metal area would be wonderful to have for welding projects. Sorry. You can't have it.

As for the paper, people don't like to admit this, but the market for recycled paper is not good, so we often pay for special receptacles, dumpsters, and personnel to drive old paper to landfills.

Used tires? Obviously valuable. A lot of people don't have the money to pay $50 for a used tire, but they could grab one from the faux recycling center if they were allowed.

I bought a 5-gallon pail of blacktop, and it turned out I didn't need it. Expensive. I knew I would never get rid of it on Craigslist because people here are so cheap, so I took it to the recycling center. I'm getting ready to dump a $300 leaf rake there. No one will be allowed to touch it.

Think recycling is real? Question what you have been told. Some of it is real, but a lot isn't. Steel and aluminum, yes. Glass? No. Sand is too abundant.

As for engineers making bad products, I'm sorry, but accountants aren't to blame for everything. If they were, Germans wouldn't make such terrible, unreliable cars. I don't think accountants designed my friend's Mercedes so you can't get the battery out without removing the passenger seat or cutting up the carpet. Accountants didn't design my old Ford Thunderbird so rainwater collected on top of the ignition coils. Accountants didn't design the new green fuel spouts that literally require three hands.

I have a Bosch dishwasher. I also have a couple of Bosch angle grinders. The dishwasher costs somewhere around 10 times as much as an angle grinder. The angle grinders have thick cases made of fiberglass. They will be around for centuries unless someone melts them or something.

The dishwasher came with a control panel made from non-reinforced plastic about 2 mm thick. I am not kidding. The handle to open the door is part of it. This is a high-stress part. The areas where the stress is greatest are full of right angles which become stress risers. Even a moron knows you radius things that endure a lot of tearing stress. And a radius in a mold is no more expensive than a right angle.

Several years ago, the handle started to rip. I removed the panel to look at it, and I saw how badly it was made. I got strong structural epoxy and filled up the area behind the rip, and I got several more years out of the panel. A short time ago, it ripped in three areas I had not reinforced, and it could not be fixed, so I bought a new one. Same design. Realistically, it had to cost less than $10 to make. Most places charge nearly $120 for it, and I was lucky to get it for $80.

Obviously, if Bosch can make a thick case with glass in it for a $70 angle grinder, they can make strong parts for an $800 dishwasher. And you can't tell me Bosch was so concerned about saving 50 cents on an $800 product, they forced the engineers to design a bad part. Engineers also designed their angle grinders.

I took the new part and reinforced it with epoxy BEFORE installing it. Now maybe the dishwasher will have to be retired because the mechanism dies from old age, not because one minor part was designed badly.

Engineers love blaming marketers and accountants, but they do a lot of really bad work. I could list examples all day, and I'm just one person. I would hate to get into the subject of collapsed bridges.

Maybe next we should talk about things that are unquestionably made hard to repair on purpose. The other day, I tried to fix a DeWalt battery charger, and I found it was held together not just with Torx fasteners, which is offensive enough, but with special tamper-resistant Torxes with little nipples in the sockets to push tools out. These are not cheaper to make than regular Torxes or Phillips screws, and they don't make assembly easier, so the intent is obvious.

I had a lot of old glass jars that I wanted rid of. I did some research on line regarding the economics of recycling glass. I was concerned with the environmental impact of the process, given that glass has to be transported to a facility that can actually use it. It turns out the those facilities will only use clean unbroken glass and that perhaps 95% of recycled glass ends up in a landfill. Sorted through and separated out the usable canning jars which went to a neighbor. She will take what she doesn't want to a local food pantry where they are cleaned and donated to their customers. 120 jars that would have contributed to filling a landfill have a new life.

Part of the problem is that trash isn't properly cleaned and sorted by the public. What could be of some use as a reused, repurposed, or recycled item ends up getting mixed with the rest of the trash. We separate all our trash, Type 1, 2, 5 plastics along with plastic carrier bags, are essentially hydrocarbons and burn likr candle wax. We burn them along with wood for winter heating. Metals get separated as to type. Steel, cast iron, and aluminum go to the local high school which sells them for recycling to support the athletics programs. Cardboard and paper end up heating the house. Compostables end up on the compost pole and eventually in the vegetable garden. Appliances are scrapped out for usable material with the rest being separated as to material and recycled.

 

[Bi11Hudson]

So you agree with me, except for your enthusiasm for Torx fasteners.

I don't agree that Torxes are awesome. I probably have 200 items in my house that are held together with Phillips screws, and they work just as well without requiring anyone to buy special tools.

The biggest problem with the super-nanny extra-nipple Torxes is that they may force you to buy sets of super-nanny tools. I have every tamper-proof bit known to mankind, but bits are thick. They won't go into every hole a nanny Torx occupies, so you have to get a dedicated tool with a thin shaft.

I have an Echo saw full of Torx screws. There are some a bit can just barely get to. There is no reason for using them. Hex screws would work fine. Unfortunately, Echo uses weird threads, so you can't just go to Ebay and buy hex screws to replace everything.

It's really amazing how many weird fastener tools I own. I also have every conceivable tool to open a tablet or phone. The police should have me on a list. And virtually none of the fasteners I can remove actually need to be exotic.

This thread seems to have stirred up several emotions. I love it. . . One of the reasons I do machine work is to make/modify tooling to fit my needs. The Torx bits are machine friendly, and as an electrician/electronics repairman agree there are places where the average consumer shouldn't go. They will often do more even more damage by trying to "jerry-rig" something to get it to work again.

Consumers aside, I use very small fasteners quite often. Has anyone priced an 0.035 spintight (nut driver)? I can tell you they don't come cheap, if you can even find one these days. I make mine in those sizes with a socket head screw by fitting a handle and turning down the screw head. If I need a deep reach, I drill and tap the end of a rod. I buy brass brazing rod in large packages for the purposes of making stuff. And have a good supply of steel rod. Hex (Allen) drivers the same way. A cheap set of Allen wrenches with the offset head cut off and a piece of steel rod makes a deep reach socket driver.

Torx particularly, but many other drivers get modified by turning down the hex shape and drilling/tapping the drive end for an extension rod. Depending on size or frequency of need, I may make a handle or just fold over the other end of the rod in a loop. Such tools may well not last very long. So what? I made it once, so just make it again. I have dozens of "specialty" tools that have been made this way. It's a large part of what got me into doing lathe work. The tools aren't very pretty, and often don't last long. But they work this one time, if they don't hold up to a second or third use, I'll make another.

I'm not recommeding this approach for a working shop, but for the casual user it's a definate headache solution. Horrible Fright tools, as a rule, are cheap and usually less strong material. They can be drilled and cut down to fit an application where US made tools are not so easy. A "security torx" driver is easy. Just drill a shallow hole in the business end.

Buying those cheap hex bits, 3 or 4 packages at a time, leaves me with working stock just sitting on a shelf. And reusing. . . Any good framing carpenter knows how fast screwdriver tips wear out. Instead of chucking them out, save to make something else out of. Yes, it takes a long time, but that's what retirement is for. Those long projects. . . And when was the last time you used your dividing head? Having a small machine shop at my disposal is much more than just making model steam engines or fixing my tractor. It's about doing what I do at my convenience, not a search engine or shipping ststem.

.

 

[C-Bag]

WE all need to become salesmen , engineers , machinists , mechanics , toolmakers and technicians . We'll have all angles covered .

Don't complain about it , take advantage of it .

It is funny this thread did make me rethink about cancelling all custom work. I decided to charge what it would really take to do a high end archtop guitar this guy has with a crazy carved back and throw out a number that was 4x what I used to charge when it was totally un worth it.

But one of the considerations was all custom work is remote, like 1,000mi or more. So the owner has to do a tracing of the instrument and it has to be accurate. But in this case it not only needs to make the outline of the body, it also has to accurately map the back heights. Turns out there is a trick metal car body guys use called Flexible Shape Pattern. A kind of lo tech way to absolutely give you the shape. So that was the second hurdle after giving him the price. I sent him this vid and he said he would do it. Even ordering the special tape to do it with and making the accompanying station gauges. Once that is sent and I can totally see what I’m up against I’ll either take the job for the price or say it’s beyond me. I radical rethink of just no.

So the OP did have a possible positive effect on my process.