I think most machinist want a cnc but for good reason and myth they are scared

[OrangeAlpine]

Sure, I'd like to go CNC. Sort of. Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.

1. I'm computer stupid.
2. Not electroncally gifted. Perhaps not electronically stupid, but definitely "challanged".
3. I'm dyslexic. Probably means nothing to the non-dyslexic.
4. I've yet to master the capabilities of the manual vertical mill.
5. Cost.
6. Age.

Bill

 

[Kevin45]

Sure, I'd like to go CNC. Sort of. Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.

1. I'm computer stupid.
2. Not electroncally gifted. Perhaps not electronically stupid, but definitely "challanged".
3. I'm dyslexic. Probably means nothing to the non-dyslexic.
4. I've yet to master the capabilities of the manual vertical mill.
5. Cost.
6. Age.

Bill

Bill....don't ever let age stop you from doing anything. No one is ever too old to learn or too old to play.
Cost......that is a factor for a lot of people. But you work all your life, don't save it for the kids, or grandkids. Enjoy what you worked for.
Dyslexic......Don't let that stop you, it just makes things more interesting and keeps the mind sharp by analyzing your mistake(s). I know, I'm dyslexic when typing and when I am doing something with numbers
Electronically Challenged and Computer Stupid.......no you're not. You are typing replies on a computer. You're not challenged, you're just letting yourself open to be intimidated.

Download a CAD program (I like DeltaCad and they have a demo version. And it's cheap to buy) and start working with that. If you are going to make something on a mill, make a cad drawing of what you are going to do. Whether it be drilling a bunch of holes or just making a flycut, draw your part. It will get you more familiar with the computer so you won't feel challenged. Just remember that everyone started machining not knowing anything. And machining is a relaxing hobby that there are so many people out there that are willing to walk you through things than you realize. I personally think that machining and machinist is one area of work and are the type of people, that will not make fun of others. No matter what your skill level is, a machinist will always help a fellow machinist or would be machinist.

 

[slowtwitch]

Being a "HOME SHOP CNC MACHINIST" and I emphasize The HOME SHOP. I don't begrudge the manual machinist one bit, in fact, I'm in awe in what can be done by a truly experienced craftsman turning the dials. With that being said, I still see this as being a CNC forum. I thought it to be a place to ask questions about CNC, learn about CNC, help folks with CNC..not debate the faults or that someone is not interested in CNC. I respect the manual machinist and in that respect, I don't visit their forums and voice a negative opinions(although I have none) of manual machining.

In a production shop you may have your stereotypical button pusher, but, in being a "HOME SHOP CNC MACHINIST" again I emphasize "the Home Shop", (just like the heading of this forum), I think your just as much a machinist as one who does it manually. You don't just press cycle start. You have to know your speeds, feeds, tool paths, setups, designing, etc. You need to know your machine just as much as a manual mill/lathe.


Hey, lets make some chips!!!!!!!

 

[David Kirtley]

Hard to post after the last one,

Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science.

<SNIP>

If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part.

Just my opinion, I am entitled Sorry for the rambling!

It is pretty amazing the kinds of things the human mind can comprehend. Remember, they comprehended and programmed the 5 axis machines too. A 5th axis is complicated but look at the complexity of the Antikythera device from 100 BC. We are talking about metalworking with such primitive tools that are mind blowing. Some files, a hand saw, a compass, some scrapers and gravers, and a hammer. Not much more. Oh, don't forget that they generally processed their own ore as well.

Here is a reconstruction. of the Antikythera device with clear faces to show what was inside:



Patternmakers routinely made the same kinds things for several hundred years that CNC makers make today. All by hand. To scale and accounting for shrinkage. Often with amazingly beautiful embellishments. A couple hundred years ago they were routinely using machines like a rose engine:


They are a work of art on their own. The things that they produce are even more amazing. These make (among other things) the intricate engravings that prevent counterfeiting such as in the printing on money and stamps and the intricate Guilloche on tiny parts on the inside of fancy watches that you would be hard pressed to even be able to do on a CNC machine.

Actually, the parts don't come out the same. With precision machinery, when you want things to really fit properly with close tolerances, parts out of a CNC machine are still not accurate enough. They are just fairly close and a bit less work to finish than rough castings. When you want real precision, out come the primitive hand tools. Scrapers, ink, surface plate, and a lot of sweat.

CNC machines do some things really well. They have their limits as well. It will be a while until CNC machines can do something like this:

 

[David Kirtley]

Sure, I'd like to go CNC. Sort of. Yes, it would widen the scope of parts available, especially from the mill, but when considering my situation, no way.

1. I'm computer stupid.

Bill

Never feel bad about not understanding a computer. I work in that field. Computer programmers have a tendency to come up with the most horrible ways to do things that I have ever seen in my life. If you ever walk up to a computer and if you cannot make it do what it was supposed to do, it is the fault of the programmer and not the user. Computers have the same intelligence as a hammer. There is no reason other than poor programming to make them any less obvious in their use.

 

[OrangeAlpine]

Never feel bad about not understanding a computer. I work in that field. Computer programmers have a tendency to come up with the most horrible ways to do things that I have ever seen in my life. If you ever walk up to a computer and if you cannot make it do what it was supposed to do, it is the fault of the programmer and not the user. Computers have the same intelligence as a hammer. There is no reason other than poor programming to make them any less obvious in their use.

Well now, that's nice to know. I always thought it was me. My best analogy goes back to math class. When questioned about why a certain step was taken to solve an equation, the answer always was "It's intuitively obvious". No, it was not obvious, or I would have done it, right? Anyway, it seems that I never see problems like the other guy does, so I always come up with a different answer. Different answers seem to work better in the analog world. The current state of the digital world is one of extreme tunnel vision. You either have the answer deemed to be correct by the computer or you are dead wrong and it will not work. In general, I see CNC as a hassle that I do not need.

But that is no reason for others to not enjoy the benefits of CNC.

Kevin, a person has to be realistic. I'm finding that as I grow older, my thinking and learning skills are changing. Things that I used to do for entertainment are now a chore or impossible. For instance, I have lost the ability to draw up plans. Some people never have that ability. I had it and lost it about 30 years ago. It is much easier to simply make the part, redoing it two or three times as the concept is refined. I noticed this change somewhere in my mid forties. Its like my mind has rewired its self several times, starting in my late teens.

Bill

 

[Tony Wells]

I am putting on my Administrator hat for a minute or two here. This thread has been a little disappointing to me. First, the subject seems accusatory. It may have been a statement made out of some experience, or just a gut feeling. At any rate, that was only issued as the opinion of one person, and they are entitled to have their opinion, and within limits, express it here. Since it was issued by a CNC proponent, it could hardly be viewed by those who feel otherwise as much less than a challenge to respond to. However, this is not a debate board, nor is it one that encourages discussions that are likely to escalate into one where veiled (or not so veiled) insults and barbs are traded by members. Everyone on board here agreed when they joined to treat everyone with the respect they want from the other members. I believe that one of our most basic tenets has been ignored here. This started out with a bit of a sour note, and went largely downhill from there.

Once a few people expressed their views that were different, and even in opposition to the original view, some took the next step to virtually accuse them of being against technological advances in machine shops in general, when that was never expressed that I read. So just what was the motivation of those who made such remarks? To instigate further debate, or continue to insult or belittle those with differing views? It seems as though the fact that this is a forum intended primarily for home shop/hobby machinist was set aside, and comparisons were being made between the reasons CNC's exist in commercial shops and those justifying CNC's in the hobby shop. There's really no comparison in the first place. The justification for using them in a commercial shop is obvious; profit. The types of CNC machines used in those shops are different than those home-brewed by the hobbyist for whom the actual building of the machine is half the enjoyment (another key difference between the two shop types). How many of you experienced professionals have seen a for-profit shop spend the time and money to build their own machine from scratch, or even convert a manual machine to CNC. I've never seen it in nearly 40 years. It's simply not a practical part of the commercial machine shop world. On the other hand, for the hobbyist, it can be an integral part of assembling the equipment for the home shop. For multiple reasons. So really, they comparison is not even germane to the original topic.

But back to that. The views held by both schools of thought are both perfectly acceptable and should cause no dissension among our members. There is no reason for this subject to generate any acrimony between members. As far as this being a "CNC in the home shop" sub-forum, it is, but that hardly excludes any member from involving themselves. For myself, I haven't the need for a CNC, but I can discuss them with anyone, and have considerable knowledge of the subject. So do many of the other members who simply are exercising their freedoms to not have a CNC in my shop, whether it's a hobby shop or not, just like I do. They obviously have opinions on this subject and are just as entitled to express them without criticism as anyone else. But I expect everyone to treat all the other members with respect. In fact, I demand it.

The fact that we even have divided the forum into sections is not to segregate the members into different camps, but to make it easier to find things, and allow specific questions to be posted in an area where people who are knowledgeable about that subject are likely to frequent. That way, the person with a problem, question, or suggestion can get the best response in the shortest time. If it was desired, it is a simple matter to restrict this person or that person to a point where they simply could not access certain areas of the forum. That's not going to happen.

So guys, we won't let this discussion degrade any further. No more bickering on who has what right, or who should or shouldn't do whatever they want in their own shop, for their own reasons. This ends those parts of this discussion. I will delete comments that violate our policies. Our policies are part of the reason people are joining here and leaving other forums where fighting seems to be the norm. It will NOT become the norm here. That I promise.

 

[jumps4]

these are my reasons and my opinion
I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
What Do You Think
steve

this was the topic 6 months ago and it set dormant. it was listing more so, the issues i had to get to where i am today and how crazy doing home cnc can be to understand. part comedy and a chance to start a friendly conversation about your struggles and achievments trying to do the same.
my title was not thought out very well and should not have implied anything, i dont know most machinist
sometimes the thread can get off topic really easy, there was never any comparison of any kind in my original post and a lot of people jump in the middle of a thread and take off in the wrong direction with followers without reading the entire thread ( I'm quilty here )
the point was for those concidering cnc what the challenges may be.
we are a friendly group and things can run away at times but what makes us better is moving on without hard feelings
your all a great bunch of people and i too enjoyed the differences in opinion but we are off topic now
steve

 

[OrangeAlpine]

I am sorry if I degraded the thread. I viewed it as an exploration into why some guys are not pursuing that field, so I added my $.02. My view of the CNC world, if you will. If that is considered to be off topic, please delete. That certainly will not bother me as it would not be first time I was off base. As I stated in an earlier post, I often (seldom?) see issues the same as others.

Bill

 

[Cuzzun_itt]

When I was in Tool Design, we were always told to make things idiot proof. A term that is not allowed in the shop today. But what CNC has done to a lot of factories, is it got rid of the skilled workers. Shops now can hire anyone off the street that remotely act like they want a job, give them a **** test, a badge and a pair of safety glasses and call them a machinist.

I don't care what anyone says, and you can't convince me that the person they hired in yesterday and pushes the "Start" button, is a machinist. I have personally watched my shop bring in people, put them behind a machine, then walk away without training. They let them learn by asking other employees, or learning by mistakes.

I prefer the term " Sailor Proof " I can say that because I was a sailor.

I agree 1000 percent on skilled workers, there are less and less of them.

I got in the machining industry as an electronic maintenance man just out of the navy. I did avation electroncs.
OK the real navy was 2nd deck and below. I just worked at the airport.

I had to repair a tool changer on a vertical machining center a few years ago. Had to replace an air cylinder. In order to get to it
I had to remove a few tools form the magazine. The operator was an " Advanced Machinest " that was the top payscale on
the plant floor.

After the repair was complete, I informed the operator that the tools need to be put back. Uh O!! I forgot to write
down which pockets I took the tools from, My Bad. The operator said " I don't know were those tools go " My response was
" you're kidding " nope, not kidding!! This is the same person that gets paid to set this machine up on new programs. Top pay
on the floor. We lost an entire shift of production because "I" didn't write down where the tools belong. Not the machinist's
responsibility.

As maintenance man I have spent the better part of 25 years straitening out peoples mistakes that with just a little for thought
could have been prevented. I don't deal with stupidity well at all.

Once is an accident or not noing any better.
Twice, com'on dude pay more attention.
3rd time and I'm going to tell them just how the cow ate the cabbage.

So if people that Stupid can make a living running a CNC mill or lathe , I think anyone who is actualy interested in learning to
operate and program a machine can do it. I know that may offend some people. I just hope none of them are on this forum.

If someone is reading this forum I think they are computer litterate enough to have a CNC in there garage. However that doesn't
mean they need or want one. I also think that a conventional machinist has to be a bonafide machinist. A CNC operator may be,
but they might not be.

Sorry I got a little off topic. Off the soap box now

Itt