How to Raise a Vice on a Kneeless Mill?

[BROCKWOOD]

Necessity is the mother invention!!!

 

[Robo_Pi]

I'm with Dat510, that spacer needs to come out. I'm betting if you pull the drill head, there are bolts holding everything together in the stack. Probably 4 socket head capscrews. The possible problem may be that you lose vertical enough that drills don't fit. The chuck will take up some of the space. The pictures seem to show it would still work. Screw machine drill bits will reduce the need for vertical space, and they are stiffer. Spacing the vice up puts a bunch odd side loads on the compound of the lathe if you are milling.

I just looked it up in my manual. There are exploded views and mine does not have the head-height adjustment.

Here's the exploded view of the adjustable model:
Notice that is has handles and a large adjustment screw.


Below is the exploded view of the model I have
Note that there is just a block of steel where the adjustement screw would go.
That silver band just goes around that solid block.


So there's no way to adjust the head height on the model I have.

 

[Robo_Pi]

Necessity is the mother invention!!!

It also helps to be financially destitute. After all, if I had the financial resources I'd have a Bridgeport.

In fact, I was just looking at nice Roundtower vertical mill for $895. Very similar to an old Bridgeport. I can't really afford it right now, but it's already sold anyway. They go quick at that price.

In the meantime the mower deck fix is on the table. Hopefully it will work and not result in a bunch of chatter or whatnot. I do plan on milling those straps flat eventually. Just the slightest skim cut on each side to get them flat and parallel. But we'll have to see if they work as-is first. It's an invention in progress.

 

[rock_breaker]

If you use the 3/8" straps you may want to stack each layer at 90` to the previous layer "cribbing" ,it will make the stack more stable.
IMHO exploring the possibility of removing a spacer block would be well worth the time. With respect to lifting the milling head I have a problem in my shop, it is a former wood frame house. On one area I put a surplus 3/4" eye bolt through the ceiling and a 4"x4" timber above the ceiling joists, it will handle 500 lbs but the room is only 8' wide and the hoist is about 2 feet from one supporting wall.
Good luck
Ray

 

[Robo_Pi]

If you use the 3/8" straps you may want to stack each layer at 90` to the previous layer "cribbing" ,it will make the stack more stable.

I was thinking about that myself. I have some more strap left over, so I might make a few shorter ones just for that purpose.

IMHO exploring the possibility of removing a spacer block would be well worth the time.

I don't think it's possible on this model. The power shaft that runs up to the milling head is splined on the model with the adjustable head allowing for the head to be raised and lowered. I think the power shaft on mine is made to just fit this one height. So to lower the head would probably require making a shorter power shaft. That would be a major undertaking.

I'm hoping to buy a "real" milling machine in the not-to-distant future. So this machine isn't worth trying to redesign.

In fact, I just missed out on this Roundtower mill for $895. Someone else bought it while I was thinking about it.



I'll keep looking. I'll find one I like at a price I'm willing to pay eventually. But boy this Roundtower looks like quite the deal. Too bad I missed out on this one. It looks pretty nice for the price.

 

[matthewsx]

I hate to point this out but your probably have the tool you need right in your toolbox. The operation you're describing could be done with a file in less time than it took me to read this thread. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that it doesn't take $10k worth of tooling to do a 10 cent job.

Cheers,

John

 

[Canus]

Not sure of the dimensions of your vise base but have you considered using a piece of 3" x ? box tubing as a riser? I've got a piece of 4" tubing that I have machined all 4 sides parallel that functions as both an angle plate and riser when needed.

 

[Cooter Brown]

I'll keep looking. I'll find one I like at a price I'm willing to pay eventually. But boy this Roundtower looks like quite the deal. Too bad I missed out on this one. It looks pretty nice for the price.

Save up enough money for a Bridgeport before you start looking that way you can jump on it when you find one. Trying to save for a machine that is available right now never works out for me, someone always beats me to it...

 

[Robo_Pi]

I hate to point this out but your probably have the tool you need right in your toolbox. The operation you're describing could be done with a file in less time than it took me to read this thread. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that it doesn't take $10k worth of tooling to do a 10 cent job.

You're absolutely right. If my goal was to just clean up the inside corner of this piece of angle iron I could have done that a long time ago in 5 minutes without any machines at all. That's not the point of this exercise. The point of this exercise is to increase the capability of this machine. This isn't the first time I've wished I could raise the vice, and I'm sure it won't be the last. In fact, before I bought this tall X-Y vice it was basically impossible to use the milling head at all as the lathe table is simply way too far beneath the milling cutter. The X-Y vice already give me about 5 inches of height. But even that is still not enough. I was thinking of a second solution, and that would be to simply by yet another small vice to put in the jaws of the X-Y vice. That would probably work too. I'm sure there's more than one way to skin this cat.

Not sure of the dimensions of your vise base but have you considered using a piece of 3" x ? box tubing as a riser? I've got a piece of 4" tubing that I have machined all 4 sides parallel that functions as both an angle plate and riser when needed.

That's a great idea. In fact, it sounds like a good idea to have several of those laying around for various jobs. I don't currently have any box tubing laying around. I'm just getting back into machining again. So my scrap metal pile is currently non existent. That's going to change over the course of this summer though.

Save up enough money for a Bridgeport before you start looking that way you can jump on it when you find one. Trying to save for a machine that is available right now never works out for me, someone always beats me to it...

You're right. I'm dreaming too soon. I also need to put a new clutch in my truck before I set out to pick up any heavy machines.

The a new clutch and pressure plate are on order. Only $53, I was shocked that I could get a new clutch and pressure plate that cheap. And I'll be installing that baby myself for free. That's the only way I can afford to save up money to buy machines.

I was actually looking at a mag chuck for $69 too, but that's gone as well.

The only two items on my wishlist that are still available are the following. But they'll probably be gone too before I get the clutch installed in my truck.

South Bend Lathe - $1,100


I'm sure that will be gone before I can get the truck repaired.

Also a Surface Grinder - $235


There's no mag chuck with it, so that $69 mag chuck would have been nice. I was going to toss the Roundtower mill on there too since they are all from the same place. One trip, three machines. It would a little crowded on a 16' trailer, but I think I could have squeezed them all on there. I'm sure I can pick up the lathe and surface grinder in one trip. But these will probably be gone too before my truck recovers from slippery clutch syndrome.

That's alright. These prices are typical I'm sure. In fact, they have some other choices similarly priced.

In fact, they also currently have this Sebastian lathe for $999

I'm torn between it and the SouthBend.


Because things move so fast I plan on calling in my purchase and then driving out to pick the stuff up. That way it won't be sold while I'm driving over to pick it up. So I thought I'd buy the SouthBend lathe officially, and then when I get there take a look at the Sebastian and compare it with the SouthBend. Maybe then I could get them to cancel the Southbend and grab the Sebastian instead.

Disclaimer: I'm dreaming out loud. It may not be until mid summer before I'm actually ready to pick anything up. So those who don't enjoy reading about a hobbyist's dreams are better off ignoring my posts.

That RoundTower mill was from this same place. But they just now got in a Bridgeport, but they want $1200 for the Bridgeport. I like the $895 for the Roundtower much better.

I'll keep dreaming whilst I replace the slippery clutch on my truck. Who knows what they'll get in next? They had a really nice Atlas lathe that went for $399. But it was gone the day it came in. It was a pretty large Atlas and had some extra tooling too. So you never know what to expect.

This place is about 200 miles from me and I don't like to drive far. So I'd like to jump when I can get a nice lathe, vertical mill, and surface grinder all on one fell swoop. All at prices I'm willing to spend. I'm looking for an "Instant Shop" for about $2500 all toll. I don't mind machines that need to be rebuilt. I'm a hobbyist remember. I'm not starting up a business.

 

[Robo_Pi]

UNBELIEVABLE!

I just finished drilling the holes in the straps. I didn't have tall enough T-nut studs so I had to use some standard hex bolts for now. And those were too long so I have large nuts taking up the extra space. Just ignore the studs.

But I am totally flabbergasted. After mounting this vice I set up a dial indicator to measure how level the top of the vice jaws are with the lathe bed. I'm measuring this with respect to main lathe bed ways. So the indicator is mounted directly to the ways. I'm measuring the top of the vice jaws as I screw the cross slide back and forth. The vice jaws are 4" wide.

Here's the set up, sorry for the poor photo: You can't see the dial gauge, but it's just reading zero anyway.


I was expecting this to be off by a lot! Maybe even as much as 30 thou or more. But to my utter shock and amazement it was only 3 thou difference over the 4" jaw surface. And that was just after bolting it on. I hadn't even tried to tap in an adjustment yet. With a few taps here and there and some more stud tightening I was able to get it less than a thou over the 4 inch jaws. In fact, at first I was thinking the dial indicator must be broken because the needle wasn't moving at all. But then I notice a small scratch in the vice jaw and sure enough the dial indicator measured that scratch. Just a few tenths.

So this is just way better than I had expected. I can't believe it's this close. Those straps cleaned up pretty nice with the wire brush evidently.

So then I check to see if the vice was perpendicular to the bed. That I had only eyeballed. And again I was surprised at how close that was. It was only about 5 thou off. See next photo. Again I'm measuring relative to the main ways of the lathe bed. I'm running the cross slide in and out while measuring against the side of the vice jaw.


With just a few taps of a heavy hammer I was able to get that lined up to less than a thou across the 4" travel.

SUCCESS!

Ok, before I finished this post I figured I better go back out and cut the workpiece I was hoping to cut.

It went smooth as can be! No chatter, no play, no nothing. Just a nice rock-solid cut. I started off with skim cuts of about 5 thou just to test consistency and stability. That when so well that I got bold and took a 25 thou cut clear across the the vice, actually even over. The workpiece was 5 inches long sticking out of the vice on either side and still it went rock-solid smooth cutting.

This set up will definitely work. Plus it's not even refined yet. I still need to get proper T-nut bolts. And I might try adding those 90 degree cross straps that rock_breaker suggested. Although I certainly didn't need them for this job.

So, whipeee! It worked! Now I have an elevated vice for future projects. Fully adjustable in 3/8" steps too. And all for FREE <- That's the best part.

So I guess that finishes up this thread. Onward to the next machining adventure.