[How-To] Hitting a measurement

with the carbide, you gota pretty much cut the depth of the radius on the tool For a minimum. Lathe rigidity is what it is. If you are getting a nice surface finish and cutting be brave and commit to the dimension. That's only a little over 0.060 depth of cut, right? Let's say you set for a 62 thou cut off the diameter on the first cut and you end up needing 64 more thou to get to your dimensions, set the dial for the additional 0.064" on the diameter (0.032" DOC) take the cut amd don't back drag coming off. I'd expect that to get you close to spot on.
 
I'm embarrassed to say that it was carbide CCMT.
(on retrospect I think that's the problem...)

Why be embarrassed? It is the tool you used.

I can tell you exactly why this is happening because I've been here before, and you can sum it up in one word - deflection. What is happening is that radial cutting forces are very large with tiny depths of cut like you were attempting. I don't know what the nose radius of your insert is but I will bet that a 0.002" depth of cut is less than 1/3 of your nose radius. If this is so then your tool is mostly skating over the surface of the work and will not provide a consistent cut, nor will it cut to the depth you dial in.

I went over this in more detail in my Boring Primer so I won't go into detail here but I encourage you to read it and try to understand how these cutting forces work. They are real forces and unless you understand them it will be hard for you to sort things out. Everything I said in the Primer applies to inserted carbide turning tools, too.

Okay, from a practical standpoint you need to hit a specific size, 0.875" OD and you're starting at 1.00" OD. Let's assume your nose radius is 0.015". Ideally, you want to take a minimum roughing depth of cut of 0.015 + around 0.005 - 0.010", so around 0.025" deep will work. Dial in that cut and measure the OD, then take another 0.025" and measure it. The SECOND cut should give you an OD 0.050" smaller than the first OD. Subsequent cuts at the same DOC should give you a consistent reduction in diameter. If this is so then the insert is responding as it should.

Next, you need to determine how small a cut that insert will allow. Most inserts will cut consistently (not accurately, consistently) at about 1/2 the nose radius, or about 0.008" DOC, without radial forces being too extreme. Go smaller than this and the insert tends to skate and not cut; go bigger and radial forces also rise until you get to about 0.005 - 0.010" beyond the nose radius. About 1/2NR is about the smallest you can reliably go and have the insert cut consistently. You will find that 1/2NR cuts will not cut what you dial in, though. Say you dial in 0.008"; you will not get a 0.016" reduction in diameter. It may be 0.015 or 0.018" but it will be consistently that number if you dial in that 0.008" DOC. Once you know what the minimum DOC your insert requires, write it down. Now you know that you simply need to rough the work until it is 0.015" or 0.018" away from final size and dial in your 0.008" DOC to come in on final size.

I hope this is clear. If not, say so and we'll break it down further. Practice until you know how to use that insert, then write down what DOC works for both roughing and finishing. Every insert is different so do this for every insert you use. Eventually, you will learn how each of your tools likes to cut and you'll be fine. Just remember that tip geometry for turning tools is important and the more you know about how that geometry impacts on cutting forces, the easier it will be for you to effectively use those tools.

Remember, too, that a properly ground HSS tool will usually cut what you dial in and is much easier to work with. One day, when you have the time, give them a shot.
 
with the carbide, you gota pretty much cut the depth of the radius on the tool For a minimum. Lathe rigidity is what it is. If you are getting a nice surface finish and cutting be brave and commit to the dimension. That's only a little over 0.060 depth of cut, right? Let's say you set for a 62 thou cut off the diameter on the first cut and you end up needing 64 more thou to get to your dimensions, set the dial for the additional 0.064" on the diameter (0.032" DOC) take the cut amd don't back drag coming off. I'd expect that to get you close to spot on.
I did not know that the nose radius dictated the DoC...that explains a lot!
 
I have had the same problem. Get close, take one last cut and I was always under my target diameter. About a month or so ago I watched a video on how to hit your target dimension. Don't remember who made the video. I call it the two cut method. Since I have started doing this I have been spot on to maybe .0005 over size. Never under. Here it is. Turn the work to within .010 plus/minus of your target. Divide the overage by two and take two more equal cuts. For example if you were over by .012 you would take two .006 cuts. Been working for me.
 
You really want the insert flat horizontally and on center, exactly or as close as you can measure. Lock down you compound at minimum extension.
 
Why be embarrassed? It is the tool you used.

I can tell you exactly why this is happening because I've been here before, and you can sum it up in one word - deflection. What is happening is that radial cutting forces are very large with tiny depths of cut like you were attempting. I don't know what the nose radius of your insert is but I will bet that a 0.002" depth of cut is less than 1/3 of your nose radius. If this is so then your tool is mostly skating over the surface of the work and will not provide a consistent cut, nor will it cut to the depth you dial in.

I went over this in more detail in my Boring Primer so I won't go into detail here but I encourage you to read it and try to understand how these cutting forces work. They are real forces and unless you understand them it will be hard for you to sort things out. Everything I said in the Primer applies to inserted carbide turning tools, too.

Okay, from a practical standpoint you need to hit a specific size, 0.875" OD and you're starting at 1.00" OD. Let's assume your nose radius is 0.015". Ideally, you want to take a minimum roughing depth of cut of 0.015 + around 0.005 - 0.010", so around 0.025" deep will work. Dial in that cut and measure the OD, then take another 0.025" and measure it. The SECOND cut should give you an OD 0.050" smaller than the first OD. Subsequent cuts at the same DOC should give you a consistent reduction in diameter. If this is so then the insert is responding as it should.

Next, you need to determine how small a cut that insert will allow. Most inserts will cut consistently (not accurately, consistently) at about 1/2 the nose radius, or about 0.008" DOC, without radial forces being too extreme. Go smaller than this and the insert tends to skate and not cut; go bigger and radial forces also rise until you get to about 0.005 - 0.010" beyond the nose radius. About 1/2NR is about the smallest you can reliably go and have the insert cut consistently. You will find that 1/2NR cuts will not cut what you dial in, though. Say you dial in 0.008"; you will not get a 0.016" reduction in diameter. It may be 0.015 or 0.018" but it will be consistently that number if you dial in that 0.008" DOC. Once you know what the minimum DOC your insert requires, write it down. Now you know that you simply need to rough the work until it is 0.015" or 0.018" away from final size and dial in your 0.008" DOC to come in on final size.

I hope this is clear. If not, say so and we'll break it down further. Practice until you know how to use that insert, then write down what DOC works for both roughing and finishing. Every insert is different so do this for every insert you use. Eventually, you will learn how each of your tools likes to cut and you'll be fine. Just remember that tip geometry for turning tools is important and the more you know about how that geometry impacts on cutting forces, the easier it will be for you to effectively use those tools.

Remember, too, that a properly ground HSS tool will usually cut what you dial in and is much easier to work with. One day, when you have the time, give them a shot.
Thank you so much for this excellent explanation.
The insert has a nose radius of .4mm or .0158" so your example translates perfectly.
I have some 12L14 that I intend to use for practice with both insert and HSS tooling. I really want to be able to hit the marks.

@mickri I'll see if I can find that video.

@NC Rick Yup, I did snug down the gibs as I found there was a tiny amount of play.
 
@mikey is obviously much smarter that I! Really nice explanation sir!

when I had my old Rockwell lathe I needed to set the cutting edge a little above center to make up for the movement. Carbide? yea On some stuff, I only had luck with TPG 322 or 321 didn't sample much. Now I learned that I need high magnification to see if I have a damaged insert. On my "new" lathe I was sure I had bad spindle bearings until I figured out that the DOC was the problem. I find CRS hard to get I nice finish on but something like 4140 is super. In what I do, I need to turn down hardened dowel pins fairly often, that is satisfying because it's easy to get a mirror finish. I'm still learning a lot and the speeds and feeds are always a challenge as math is required and I am no good at math. I am good at being lazy and running by feel. I like "That Lazy Machinist" as someone who is really good at explaining and is also knowledgeable ( like @mikey ). Making mistakes is not embarrassing, it is our path to learning.
 
There is tool deflection when making heavier cuts. This is the reason that we do spring passes. Whenever you change the depth of cu you need to reestablish your diameter. The way that I do it is to stop my roughing passes at slightly oversize. The amount is dependent on the depth of cut of the roughing pass. Then I adjust my cutter for the lightest of skim passes and make a pass. Measure the diameter of the work and adjust the cutter for another cut . If there is some tool deflection now it will be removing less material rather than more. Depending on roughing depth of cut, you may want to repeat the process.
 
I went over this in more detail in my Boring Primer
I'm interested. I've done a beautiful of burnishing a finish when trying to cut those last few thou. with carbide inserts. They do have a minimum cut depth.
 
Thanks, guys.

I think the easiest way to go is to look at the back of the box your inserts come in. The maker will tell you what the most effective depth of cut will be, along with the recommended speed and feed rates. Typically, that DOC recommendation will be about 0.010" larger than the nose radius. This is not a random number they picked; it is the DOC where the nose radius is fully supported to minimize radial forces. It is also that DOC where tangential forces are acceptable. If you run the lathe at their recommended speeds and feeds, that cutter should give you accurate results.

I should add that you can definitely go deeper than the manufacturer recommends; people do this all the time. However, tangential forces will rise and consistency of the result will vary. This is dealt with by roughing hard until you get sorta close, then take a recommended DOC to clean things up, then start focusing on getting to where you can dial in a finishing DOC that you know will work. No matter how impressive the YouTube guys make it look, it all comes down to coming in on size. With inserts, that means you MUST know the minimum accurate DOC your insert can take. As long as you know that minimum DOC and can get there or close to it then how you get there doesn't matter a whole lot.
 
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