Help Size Bore For A Cannon.

[kvt]

Thanks for all the information. And better than some of the sites that sell cannons, and materials. I watch a vid on one that sells the .177 cannons, They said just put what looks close to the size of a pea on a piece of folded paper and pour it down the barrel then ram it down and mark the ram with your finger, the pull it and put it over the top of the barrel. If the powder was not up to the trunions you were ok. That is a little scary to me. And that was the cannon maker. I mostly want it for noise.

 

[Terrywerm]

Terry...

Do you by any chance know Stan Foster in Ill... he was a national Musket champion years ago.

No, I cannot say that I do, but that name does ring a bell for me, just not sure why.

Thanks for that Terry,
I was at the range yesterday and saw 4ffff powder used for the first time in 25 years of muzzle loading. They were using 4fff powders to re prime a dry balled shot in a newbies percussion cap rifle. I understand the 4fff may have been flash pan powder I am pleased to find this warning here. It just adds to that store of little things of what should be known about a potentially dangerous activity. I was surprised that such a tiny bit of powder could drive the ball out of the barrel.

Yes, 4F is normally used only as the priming charge in a flintlock musket, rifle, or shotgun. I have done the trick of using a little bit of 4F behind the nipple to eject a dry charge, but I also know of an instance where they got carried away with it and it spit the nipple out of the snail when it went off, stripping the threads out of the snail. The ball was ejected also, but the nipple went out with enough force to bend the hammer as it went skyward. Luckily, no one got hurt as a result. I prefer to use a CO2 ball ejector when encountering a gun that has been dryballed or will not go off for some reason. It is a much safer way to handle the problem, and easier, too. Not to mention that a CO2 ejector can be used on percussion guns as well as flintlocks and even on cannon. I will do a brief explanation about powder grades in a separate post very shortly.

Thanks for all the information. And better than some of the sites that sell cannons, and materials. I watch a vid on one that sells the .177 cannons, They said just put what looks close to the size of a pea on a piece of folded paper and pour it down the barrel then ram it down and mark the ram with your finger, the pull it and put it over the top of the barrel. If the powder was not up to the trunions you were ok. That is a little scary to me. And that was the cannon maker. I mostly want it for noise.

That method of measuring the powder is a bit scary to me. Granted, the smaller the bore, the more latitude you will have in powder volumes, but you only need enough powder to do the job, why use more? The excess powder simply burns out in midair, beyond the muzzle of the barrel, where it does no good at all. I might recommend this for a powder measure: Find a spent .22 mag cartridge and solder a short handle of brazing rod on to it. That would give you a measure that would be pretty close to ten grains, maybe a hair more, maybe a hair less, but the key is that it would give you a consistent method for measuring your powder charge. After you pour your powder in, place the handle of the powder measure down in the barrel. If you get distracted, this will tell you that you already have a charge of powder in the barrel, and prevents double charging, and can even help prevent dry balling the piece. Once you have your patch and ball (or just a pellet) ready to go, remove the powder measure and start the patch and ball, finally ramming down on top of the powder charge.

One other recommendation that I might make: Once the cannon is complete, make your ramrod of a non-sparking material such as aluminum or brass. I would avoid using a wood dowel as they break too easily. Also stay away from steel or stainless steel, as dropping the rod in could cause a spark as the rod rubs against the barrel. If that occurred while dropping the rod in on top of an open powder charge, it could go off, turning the ramrod into a lethal projectile. Once you have your ramrod made, drop it in your barrel and make a permanent mark on the ramrod at the muzzle. This will then be your clear bore indicator as well as your ramrod.

I did not intend to hijack this thread, but the current discussion is pertinent to shooting model cannons, and being related to the safety of those engaged in such activities, I think it is proper to include it here.

 

[Terrywerm]

I mentioned that I would do a brief explanation about black powder, but instead I have attached a handout that I use in my muzzleloading instruction classes. It covers most of the details about black powder and black powder substitutes.

Also, have a look at this video about barrel failures in muzzleloaders. It is a neat clip, and an eye opener!

 

[kvt]

Terry No problem. the discussion is nice and all can learn from it. I am enoying it. and since I started It I think I can say you are quite welcome to continue. Having fun typing right now, Sliced the back off my knuckle in the kitchen. was sharpening a knife and wife walked towards me, so a moved and cut 3 fingers, one real deep. This is a bummer as I had just started turning the outside of a barrel for practice.
Also read somewhere, that a safty precaution on some cannon barrels is to build it then pack it in sand. then fire it with max charge you want to allow, exta long fuse, and a extra safe zone. then test fire it. This way if it fails for some reason. it is more contained at a safe distance.

 

[Andre]

On your first test fire, start with a light load and a slightly smaller pellet diameter. Take two flat steel, glass, or even kitchen knives and roll a pellet between them. Close the skirt on the back a hair, making for an easier fit in the bore. Will require less pressure to fire.

One of the projects coming up will be to build a miniature Naval style cannon, .177 caliber. Should be fun.

 

[Terrywerm]

Sorry to hear about the industrial accident while on KP. That really sucks!

I figure that it is better to share the knowledge even if it only keeps one person from getting hurt than to sit blindly by the side and say nothing. I am also glad to hear that you have found some good bits in the material I presented. Makes it all worth while.

 

[JimC27]

Wow! Now, I am afraid to fire my new Remington 1858 pistol! Seriously, a good discussion, and I appreciate every word. Thanks to Hobby Machinist and to all. For the record, I purchased a bottle of Pyrodex P, ~FFFG Equivalent. I hope that is correct.

 

[kvt]

I guess I'm on hold and just doing a little more research for a few more days, Unable to bend fingers makes it hard to machine and type. Thank god for spell checker. So I have a partial test barrel on the lathe. waiting for me to get back to it. Now just to figure out the bore I want..177 or .22

 

[rdhem2]

That is what I made my cannon to represent. A Navy 32 pounder. After the cannon I made a oak trunion to support it, then made a small 14" x 8" diorama type display to represent the bulwarks and gunnels of a ship. Complete with tackle, belaying pins and dropping port door to complete the effect. Planked decking with round toothpicks to represent pegs. Could not use all that when I shot it, .44 caliber, as the recoil was way too severe. Neat set-up. Then when I came home after the service it was pretty well wrecked as my little brother had used it as a toy. Boy was I peeved, but I still have the cannon and trunion, most of it anyway. Mine just utilized a flash hole to set it off. Loaded with a small dab of 3F and a balled up wad of newsprint she makes a respectable report with lots of gratifying smoke.

 

[Dr. Duzlittler]

Ken, you are basically creating a short, smooth bore muzzleloader when you make a small cannon. So, you will want to use the same things as a muzzleloader. Many people mistakenly think they can use any old powder and that any idiot can figure out how to pour powder into the barrel and ram a ball down on top of it. Believe me, it is not that simple. Entire books have been written on the subject. I highly recommend that you get some instruction from someone that is very experienced with muzzleloaders. There are dozens of variables when creating a load, and dozens of things that can go wrong. For your own safety, please seek out proper help. I can help you with some basics, enough to get you started, but to teach you everything that I typically teach to others would require you to make a trip to Minnesota for some serious range time. I am nationally certified to teach muzzleloading through 4-H and the NMLRA, so yes, I could teach you, but you will just have to trust me when I say that you would be best off to get some hands on instruction from someone who is genuinely knowledgeable on the subject.

To figure out the bore, obtain some of the steel balls that you plan to use. Let's assume that they are exactly .250" in diameter. You will need to allow for a cotton patch to fit between the ball and the bore because the patch wraps much of the way around the ball. Patches are commonly available in .010" as well as some other thicknesses, but .010" are probably the most common. So, add one patch thickness to the diameter of the ball (.010 + .025 = .035") arriving at a desired bore of .035. You might think that it should be .045, but the patch needs to compress a little bit, which is why we only make the bore .035".

If you prefer to shoot .22 caliber pellets, do this: purchase a .22 caliber rifled sleeve from Brownell's, then machine your cannon bore to accept the sleeve using a good firm press fit, or better yet, make it a shrink fit. If you shoot pellets, you will not need any patches, more about that shortly.

What do you plan to use for powder?? This is an important consideration. If you are going to use black powder, such as Goex or Swiss, you will want to use FFFg (3F). If you are going to use black powder substitutes, such as Pyrodex, you will want to use 'P' type, which is similar to 3F. If you use Triple 7, American Pioneer, Shockey's Gold, or Black MZ, you will want 3F. Next question is how much powder to use. Keep in mind that it is very important that you ALWAYS use a powder measure of some sort, never pour powder from your container directly into the barrel. From experience I can tell you that 7 to 10 grains (by volume, not weight!) will be great plenty when using any of the powders listed above. Ten grains of 3F will give you consistent shots with a .22 caliber pellet at 50 yards. If you use Triple 7, use 10% less as listed in the instructions that come with the powder. One last note on powder: NEVER USE FFFFg ( 4F ) POWDER AS A MAIN CHARGE. And I mean NEVER! Period. Don't do it. Powder that fine creates dangerously high pressures when it burns in a confined space. Also do not be tempted to use modern smokeless powders.

When you load, measure then pour in your powder first, then center a lubed patch over the muzzle, and place a ball over it, then ram the ball and patch down on top of the powder. No need to ram it hard or hammer it down, just press it down firmly on top of the ball. MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT THERE IS NO AIR SPACE BETWEEN THE POWDER AND THE PATCH AND BALL! If you use pellets, you will not need to worry about the patch, just your powder and then the pellet. The no air space rule applies for pellets, too. Also make absolutely certain that you do not accidentally double charge the bore.

When black powder burns, it leaves behind some residue that builds up inside the barrel just above the point where the ball or pellet rests on the powder. This residue will build up very quickly in a small caliber piece, and can cause the ball or patch to stop short of the powder when you ram it home. This will cause an air gap between the powder and the projectile, which when ignited, has the same effect as an obstructed barrel. In a mild case, and obstructed barrel or an air gap will 'walnut' or bulge the barrel. In a worst case scenario, the barrel could explode. To prevent this from happening, you will want to run a damp cleaning patch down the barrel after every shot. Not wet, just damp. This serves the double purpose of removing the powder residue as well as extinguishing any smoldering embers that might remain in the barrel.

I could go on and on, but what I have provided here is enough to get you started. Have fun, but be safe, and seek out some good help. If you choose to ignore any of the warnings given here, all I can say is that it has been nice knowing you.