Going To Buy A Lathe... Thoughts, Input Solicited By Inexperienced Dufus

[markamerica]

Mark,

I've read your lathe saga this evening. Congratulations on finding and having the guts to go ahead with the purchase even with the electricals being missing. I have a similar small farm situation and similar size shop area inside my pole barn. Besides the day job, I have been hay farming since the early 80's with very used equipment. By necessity I have made parts and even a main gearbox shaft within the gearbox of a JD pull behind combine. My long owned lathe is a 10" X 36" Clausing. Its size has been adequate for most of what we have needed to make. When I got it in the 80's, a good friend electrical engineer designed the details to convert it to single phase 240 V power (no 3 phase available here). Since then I have acquired a 14" X 36" gap bed Japanese lathe for some of the reasons you spoke of earlier. Like you, I trailered it and loaded and unloaded it myself with a 975 Bobcat. But I could have used one of the bigger tractors with its loader. Maybe you have a neighbor with similar equipment who is willing to help you unload. I doubt your estimated weight of 8,000 lbs if you were running a 4 wheel trailer with 35 psi tire pressure. I think you would have blown out a tire or 2. So my WAG of the machine weight is maybe 5,000 lbs, and even that + trailer dead weight exceeds what that tire pressure would sustain for a 3 hour drive. Point I am getting to is if a good size farm tractor loader is used without the weight of the empty bucket (take the bucket off) and lift with hefty straps from the front cross member of the loader frame (closer to the tractor gives greater lift), you should be able to slightly lift the lathe and then drive the trailer out from under. When moving the tractor and lathe, keep the lathe very close to the ground. Keep the straps straight and not twisted. I lift by placing the straps under the lathe bed, one close to the headstock, and one closer to the tailstock. Move the carriage toward the tailstock, to somewhat balance the load. See that the lift straps are not touching any of the levers or switches and have no interference with the carriage. Use nothing less than the 2" wide straps rated at 10,000 breaking strength. I would use 2 such straps at each end of the lathe bed. I see by your early photos, the seller used chain for lifting. I much prefer straps, much less likely damage to the machine, and they are much less likely to slip sideways than chain. As another poster pointed out, a lathe is top heavy, so lifting from the bed makes good sense. If you unload before your dolly cart is built, you can move the lathe on a dirt or gravel surface by laying down a couple of 2 x 10 planks on the dirt (space them apart maybe 10-12") cut some scrap 1 1/4" water pipe into 30 to 36" lengths , 6 pieces or more spaced about 1 ft apart perpendicular to the parallel planks, place another pair of 2 x 10 on top to the pipes and set the lathe on top of the "pipe sandwich". Working alone, I pull the machine forward using a come-along between a pole barn pole and the lathe foot. Do not pull from the bed with this setup. If you need to turn the lathe, just begin setting the pipes at a bit of an angle to the lower planks (kind of like steering it into place). As you inch forward, a pipe comes out from the back, you then put it at the front of the pull. It is easier to do, than it is to explain.

For the jack screws on your planned dolly, 2 possible suggestions: 1) If you have commercial scaffolding wheels available (with screw thread adjustments) they work very well. 2) 1/2" threaded rod or bolts may carry the weight, but I have had too many fail by bending or snapping off. 3/4" bolts or threaded rod is the smallest I would use for this application. Your farm machinery dealer parts dept might have the grade 5 threaded rod 36" long in stock. Our CNH dealer has the threaded rod selection out on the display floor.

Work slowly and carefully on this phase of the project, you'll do well.

Paul in MN

Paul,

Thanks, on the trailer, let me clear that up. I had about 35 lbs for the first quarter mile. At a corner gas station using a stack of quarters, I got them up to around 45 using that cheap coin-operated compressor they had. Then I hauled 3-4 miles at a gingerly 25-30 mph, slower when I could, until I got to the Discount Tire shop Ken recommended to me, where they topped them off to 75psi. I drove home on 75 psi for 3 hours... Wouldn't have made it out of town as it was. The trailer has a GTWR of 20K. Its own weight is about 4500. The minimum weight spec I can find for this series of lathe is around 6,600. Seen them listed as high as 7,200. I figure 8,000 is a safe working estimate. It may be 1,400 or so less. I know that my little 45hp tractor routinely handles 6x6 round bales approaching the 1 ton mark. It wouldn't budge it. (I just wanted to see if I could even budge one end of it...Not a chance.) I'm going to try to Egyptian Pyramid this thing off the trailer this weekend. It's already been sitting on the trailer a week longer than I wanted. My plan is to use a pair of 3 ton floor jacks to elevate one end, stick some lengths of pipe under the pedestals, and roll it to the end of the trailer bed. From there, I will see if I can get it onto some posts I have that are 10' sections of telephone pole. If I can work it back until the tail-end pedestal is at the end of the bed of the trailer, I'm thinking I can at that point get the jacks under it, and elevate just enough to pull the trailer clear. Then, set it down on that end, go to the other end, jack it off the telephone pole, and set it down. I can use a combination of chains and tow straps to control its momentum. The way I have the trailer situated at the moment, the end of the bed is over-hanging the concrete by about 2', and since off the slab, the trailer sits about 8 inches lower, I've only got about 1' difference in height between the bed of the trailer and the surface of the concrete. Worse comes to worse, I'll hire out one of the local wrecker companies, put the trailer back on the slab, have them lift it about 1" clear of the bed, pull the trailer, and then set it straight down for now.

I've re-thought the dolly business some too. Part of the rationale for the dolly was that my small shop would require it to be movable. In another thread, I've mentioned we've decided to double my shop floorspace by extending it another 16 ft within the barn, so we'll be doing some more concrete work. That will give me the floor space to put a couple feet behind the lathe on a permanent basis. Then I'll only need to move it one time. Rather than spend the money on the steel and casters and so on, I'm going to try to find a more economical approach. I figure I'd have spent in steel and hardware for the dolly what I'll spend on concrete and rebar, more or less, but the one wall gets 16' longer, as does the lowered ceiling deck, so a little added cost. Not too bad though. Thing is, I'll still need to find a way to move this thing one time once it's on the ground. It can sit in that center aisle for quite a while as I do some of the basic structural work for the shop. It doesn't need to move, and then when it does, I'll need to figure something out. I looked at some heavy duty car dollies, but the only thing I worry about there is weight distribution on the dollies themselves. They're made to have a tire resting on them, laying in the trough formed by the wide V of the platform. Not sure how they'd work with something heavy laid across the tops of them. Found some that will support 2,500 lbs each, sold in pairs for reasonable amounts, thought maybe I could buy two pairs, support the headstock pedestal with a pair, the mid pedestal with one, and the tail pedestal with another, or something along those lines. Would be a heckuva lot cheaper than my custom cradle/dolly business, and would have other uses(like a car, for instance...LOL)

Anyway, that's where I'm at.

Thanks Paul!

Mark


When we loaded it on the trailer, I had them position it for proper weight distribution fore/aft with respect to the loading of the axles and tongue. I got it pretty close, but as I got up to around 60mph after airing up those tires, I saw just a little wandering in the tail that told me I had the weight ever so slightly to far rearward. Pulled over on the shoulder, and cranked the carriage about a foot closer to the tailstock, got it back up to speed, and yep, that made the difference. Tracked fine after that. Anyway, the jack-screws I had planned for the dolly were going to be 1" grade 8 pipe flange studs.

I was studying the lathe a little, and noticed in the end of the headstock end pedestal, there are two rectangular holes cut into the pedestal, close to the centerline, very near the bottom of the pedestal on the end. It looks like a jacking point

 

[4GSR]

Mark,

Be super careful dragging that lathe off your trailer. I would highly recommend you get a couple 2 x 12's to mount under the footing of the lathe. Let the boards stick out about 3" on each side and about 3" on the front end and 6" on the tail end. This will give you a "sled" to help you get it off the trailer. Use your tractor ramps to support the lathe as it is coming off the trailer. And last, jack up the tongue end of the trailer as high as you can get it and still be connected to the trailer with your truck. Deflate the rear set of tires on the trailer. All of this should get the back end of the trailer almost to the ground level. Have you a bunch of "cribbing" handy, you will need it! Take your time and stop pulling every 4-6" and check to make sure everything is going your way. If not make adjustments and continue pulling. Last, keep people away from the sides of the lathe while pulling! And keep yourself safe and have a escape plan of getting away from the load as you are pulling on it!!! Ken

 

[Wreck™Wreck]

Stout machine, electrical problems are the easiest to fix. As far as spindle reverse it is needed for backing out taps and LH tapping, also it is often not possible to get the carriage close enough to the spindle when the gap is removed to use normal OD tools, I often use a boring bar upside down with the spindle in reverse to reach the part, as seen below.

It is useful if called upon to make parts with a taper on the end short enough to do with the compound yet to steep for a taper attachment, turn the compound to the required angle with the hand wheel toward the operator, use a boring bar on the back side and run the spindle in reverse, this is far more comfortable then reaching over the carriage and cross slide to crank the handle

Try not to run the carriage into the gap.
Good Luck

 

[markamerica]

Mark,

Be super careful dragging that lathe off your trailer. I would highly recommend you get a couple 2 x 12's to mount under the footing of the lathe. Let the boards stick out about 3" on each side and about 3" on the front end and 6" on the tail end. This will give you a "sled" to help you get it off the trailer. Use your tractor ramps to support the lathe as it is coming off the trailer. And last, jack up the tongue end of the trailer as high as you can get it and still be connected to the trailer with your truck. Deflate the rear set of tires on the trailer. All of this should get the back end of the trailer almost to the ground level. Have you a bunch of "cribbing" handy, you will need it! Take your time and stop pulling every 4-6" and check to make sure everything is going your way. If not make adjustments and continue pulling. Last, keep people away from the sides of the lathe while pulling! And keep yourself safe and have a escape plan of getting away from the load as you are pulling on it!!! Ken

Ken, As I mentioned off-thread, I've decided I've gotten a good deal on unloading it from a local towing company, so they get the job. It's just preferable to me to be safe and be done with it and put nobody's life, limbs, or property at serious risk. Mine included. As I mentioned elsewhere above, I've decided to scrap the permanent roll-around solution, simply because I'll have the floor-space I need with the extension of my shop by another 16x16. That will alleviate the necessity to keep it crowded against a wall and move it out when I need to work behind it. Instead, I'll just move it into place once. Still would like to read thoughts on the heavy duty car dolly idea/notion. Thanks!

Mark

 

[markamerica]

Stout machine, electrical problems are the easiest to fix. As far as spindle reverse it is needed for backing out taps and LH tapping, also it is often not possible to get the carriage close enough to the spindle when the gap is removed to use normal OD tools, I often use a boring bar upside down with the spindle in reverse to reach the part, as seen below.

It is useful if called upon to make parts with a taper on the end short enough to do with the compound yet to steep for a taper attachment, turn the compound to the required angle with the hand wheel toward the operator, use a boring bar on the back side and run the spindle in reverse, this is far more comfortable then reaching over the carriage and cross slide to crank the handle

Try not to run the carriage into the gap.
Good Luck

Thanks Wreck!

I have done my first bit of work to make this lathe operable again. Minor thing, but the tool post was not completely, but largely frozen, or enough that the locking plates(you guys correct me on my terminology, I'll appreciate you helping me not read like an imbecile...) are on some sort of pins that slide in and out as you rotate the shaft via the handle. It would turn about 1/8 of a turn. I pulled it off and brought it in the house where I could work in cooler conditions. They don't travel very far in and out, but I also noticed that when I pulled the plates off(secured by socket-head screws recessed into the faces of the plates) that there are shim washers, look like brass probably, and one had a slightly larger thin steel piece, looks like it covers the shims, and is wider than the pin, I suspect to help keep crap out of there, but the other one was missing this thin plate. Anyway, after work them back and forth by means of WD-40 and a couple light blows with the dead-blow, just to get them moving, I finally got to where I can spin this thing all the way around. Here's my question: I looked at it for a while. How does it come apart? Do you remove the shaft, which I expect must have highs and lows that act as cams to push the pins outward(and thus the lock plates) or what? Because while I've gotten it freed up, it's still kind of nasty, and while by working them in and out a lot for a while, I managed to get a load of gunk and crud out of there, they're still a bit sticky. I can now place those fine boring bar holders I got from Ken on it and lock them down, and release them, slide off no problems, but if I really want to get this bugger cleaned up, what's the disassembly procedure? By the way, the handle on this one is clearly a long 5/8" bolt somebody cut the head from to fashion a new handle. And it's bent besides... I'll find a new handle on Ebay. Anyway, I assume shims are available. But two more dumb question. On the side that would ordinarily face you, there's a threaded hole. On the underside, just off to one side, there's another hole, but I can't tell if it's threaded, it's so full of crud. I'll clean it out. Do these play a part in disassembly? Is there going to be some kind of set screw or something in either of those?

Trying to learn like I did as a kid: Tear it apart. Try not to damage/destroy in the process.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[markamerica]

Thanks Wreck!

I have done my first bit of work to make this lathe operable again. Minor thing, but the tool post was not completely, but largely frozen, or enough that the locking plates(you guys correct me on my terminology, I'll appreciate you helping me not read like an imbecile...) are on some sort of pins that slide in and out as you rotate the shaft via the handle. It would turn about 1/8 of a turn. I pulled it off and brought it in the house where I could work in cooler conditions. They don't travel very far in and out, but I also noticed that when I pulled the plates off(secured by socket-head screws recessed into the faces of the plates) that there are shim washers, look like brass probably, and one had a slightly larger thin steel piece, looks like it covers the shims, and is wider than the pin, I suspect to help keep crap out of there, but the other one was missing this thin plate. Anyway, after work them back and forth by means of WD-40 and a couple light blows with the dead-blow, just to get them moving, I finally got to where I can spin this thing all the way around. Here's my question: I looked at it for a while. How does it come apart? Do you remove the shaft, which I expect must have highs and lows that act as cams to push the pins outward(and thus the lock plates) or what? Because while I've gotten it freed up, it's still kind of nasty, and while by working them in and out a lot for a while, I managed to get a load of gunk and crud out of there, they're still a bit sticky. I can now place those fine boring bar holders I got from Ken on it and lock them down, and release them, slide off no problems, but if I really want to get this bugger cleaned up, what's the disassembly procedure? By the way, the handle on this one is clearly a long 5/8" bolt somebody cut the head from to fashion a new handle. And it's bent besides... I'll find a new handle on Ebay. Anyway, I assume shims are available. But two more dumb question. On the side that would ordinarily face you, there's a threaded hole. On the underside, just off to one side, there's another hole, but I can't tell if it's threaded, it's so full of crud. I'll clean it out. Do these play a part in disassembly? Is there going to be some kind of set screw or something in either of those?

Trying to learn like I did as a kid: Tear it apart. Try not to damage/destroy in the process.

Thanks!

Mark

Well shucks, figured it out, completely disassembled, and figured out why the shims since nothing looked that badly worn(there is wear on the pins.) The thing was so full of the blackest gunk and hard crud I've seen since my Army days, looked almost coked on, but the pins couldn't extend all the way and the springs couldn't retract. Because the pins couldn't easily extend all the way, I couldn't pull the cammed shaft. So I played around and by some careful guessing, I took a longer 1/4" screw, used the locking plates to pull out slightly on the pins, by turning them 90 and using them like little pullers. Shaft came out, then with a little more careful work, pushed the pins inward until they fell inside, dumped them out, removed the springs, and gave it all a good cleaning. Reassembled with lighter grease, and it works like a champ. Had to ditch the shims altogether on one side, left one in on the other.

Works easy as pie now. I know it isn't much, but I learned something and made one itty bitty baby step toward making the lathe usable again.

It will take a month to get the stains out of my hands.... LOL

Mark

 

[Wreck™Wreck]

A threaded hole in an assembly often will hold a set screw, always check for this, some are assembled by installing 1 set screw and placing another on top to lock it in.

Some unused threaded holes are construction holes used during machining/plating/finishing/painting processes, electro plated parts are hung in the tank by suitable means, often threaded holes with hooks installed are used for this purpose using non conductive material.

I reguarly use 2 lathes that have Aloris tool posts, the one in the above picture is holding a 2 1/2" diameter boring bar, the other is I believe a DXA size which is a bit smaller. both have a 3/8-16 tapped hole in the body that I have no idea why it is there, have never had a reason to take them apart.

 

[markamerica]

A threaded hole in an assembly often will hold a set screw, always check for this, some are assembled by installing 1 set screw and placing another on top to lock it in.

Some unused threaded holes are construction holes used during machining/plating/finishing/painting processes, electro plated parts are hung in the tank by suitable means, often threaded holes with hooks installed are used for this purpose using non conductive material.

I reguarly use 2 lathes that have Aloris tool posts, the one in the above picture is holding a 2 1/2" diameter boring bar, the other is I believe a DXA size which is a bit smaller. both have a 3/8-16 tapped hole in the body that I have no idea why it is there, have never had a reason to take them apart.

Wreck,
Thanks! After cleaning all the old gunk out of the holes, I found one on the side was threaded, and the one underneath was not. I almost wonder if the one underneath is meant to be like a locking point and if some lathes have some kind of quick reference default point on their compounds for which this is intended, or what. The one on the side, the threaded one, who knows. No set screw, and nothing I could see that it has to do with its operation or assembly, near as I can tell. Might be just what you said: Something used in the manufacturing process, but irrelevant to use as intended.

It took me a few minutes of studying it, once I got the pins behind the lock plates to spin to figure out how it must go together. My clue that something was amiss was that the pins wouldn't retract on their own, and the only way I figured that could work was with springs, and figured they were missing, broken, sprung, or terribly crudded-up. Turned out to be the last, though they seem a little weak, so maybe also a little "sprung." Of course, once I got all the old gunk and crud out, and the pins would move in and out and spin freely, and the springs could actually operate, then the plates began to retract properly, and I understood why somebody shimmed them. They weren't getting their full travel, the shaft wouldn't turn all the way around, and the springs were so jammed-up with hard crud that they couldn't move all the way in or out. This is why the shaft would only go about 1/8th of a turn.

Now, as far as my pea brain can figure, it works like it ought to:

How's that?

Thanks!

Mark

 

[4GSR]

You're wife let you bring stuff into the house to work on? I think you awful brave with that in the house.

 

[markamerica]

You're wife let you bring stuff into the house to work on? I think you awful brave with that in the house.

Ken, First of all, I'm the man of the house and King of my castle, and she was at work during the day yesterday, so I was safe as long as it was all cleaned up before she arrived home.

Second of all, through decades of careful conditioning, whereby I bring something in to work on and extend by small increments the limits of her patience and tolerance, a small item like a tool post goes virtually unnoticed so long as any messiness is cleaned up before she sees it.

I put the finishing touches and reassembled by 8:15 yesterday evening, and the space cleaned back up by 830. She walked through the door at 8:45. No mess, no problem.

Third, and last, how do you think I've convinced her that it's time I have an air-conditioned workshop, including my concrete augmentation?

Truth is, I've been laying the groundwork for this project for many years!

"Just think dear, I'll be able to stop dragging in this and that to work on, and won't be here most evening to compete for the remote..." And so on.

The best plans are the longer term ones that you stick to in quiet diligence over time.

Muwahahahaha!

Now all I have to do is pray she never reads this... LOL

Mark