Getting from zero to hero?

[mksj]

I started with a mill, for me it did more of what I needed, and had never used a lathe so didn't know what I was missing. At this point, in particular with what you want to do, you might as well get both because sooner than later you will kick your self if for not getting the other. If you want to make parts, then it is a no brainer, you need both. I agree with 7milesup, the PM1340GT or 1440GT gives you enough capacity and accuracy for turning w/o getting into the heavier/bigger lathes. They are very good quality machines if you can get into this price level. Buy once, cry once. A lot of gunsmiths and tinkers go with these lathes, the 1440GT has the larger 2" spindle bore and manual foot brake which are nice, but the 1340GT is also very capable. Go 3 phase on the lathe, motor control and surface finish is better. Do a basic VFD control or go RPC. I also agree that the PM-833 is a very capable mill, if you are not boring large holes go with the variable speed 833TV. If you get the CNC itch down the line, there are conversion kits and lots of information for this model. Space wise, as far as machine foot prints, it is a good combination. If you want to go hog wild on the mill than I would move up to a full size knee mill like a PM-949 or KTM-3VSF, but at big price hike. Mass = rigidity, but not necessarily quality. Taiwanese machines offer better quality at a 20-25% cost premium. Used mills and lathes, may not be much savings these days, and more likely to bite you if you do not know how to fully assess their condition. New machines have a warranty, PM/QMT seems to have the longest (5 years on Taiwanese machines) and a good reputation.

I will add one more must have machine to your pile, which is a metal band saw, w/o that how are you going to rough cut all your metal. Consider a PM-712G Horizontal/Vertical or Jet HVBS-710SG 7 x 10.5 Miter Band Saw to holiday buying spree. I have the Enco/MSC version 712G and it works decently, but if I were to do it again I would go with the Jet Swivel head which is much better for doing miters and such. Jet is running a year end rebate until the end of the year, so this model will come in at just over 2K delivered with the rebate. Mine has coolant, if I do a lot of cutting I use it, if infrequent I run dry with a good blade and manually apply some cutting oil for steel.

Welder, it is an art to get it into it and do decent welds. I don't weld but have friends that do and have spent years perfecting their skills. TIG is harder than MIG, lots of parts to the puzzle. The Miller Multimatic's get very good reviews as a combination welder and they seem to hold-up well. Plan on 2-3K as an entry level, I would put this 2nd tier to the machines above. If you have friends that weld, spend some time with them, have them weld up you parts and learn the basics first.

Prices continue to go up, this year it seems like everything has gone up 15-20%. Do not know if this is tariffs, limited supply, or global costs but I doubt anything is going to be less expensive next year. Supply and inventory is going to be significant issue probably until mid to end of next year. Ok, you have the most of the machinery list, now for the bad news. Outfitting the mill with a decent Vise like a Kurt DX6, collets, parallels, end mills/face mills, indicators and such will very quickly push you past another 1K. On the lathe, well that is a sink hole money pit when it comes to outfitting it with decent tooling. I have spent as much on chucks and tooling as I did for my lathe. You can start out light, but I would realistically start out with a 1-2K budget for tooling, and that assumes you already have decent chucks.

 

[Winegrower]

You are going to want it all any way.

Ding...ding...We have a winner of the "best overall summary" award.

 

[Bi11Hudson]

All in all, I'm probably the last person you should listen to at this point. Mostly I build (small) model trains and my use of machine tools is related primarily to that particular hobby. There is also the factor of working with wood on an old house, but the tools for that are a whole different issue. But I do make special tools for woodworking with my metal machines.

But there is a point I would like to throw out for your consideration. In the "lathe vs mill" discussion, milling of a sort can be done on a lathe. Accuracy is less, as a rule, and speed is far less. And there are many limitations with size. But it can be done. Lathe work also can be, to a small extent, done on a mill. No threading on the mill, but that's just a lack of knowledge on my part. I'm sure it could be done.

But the lathe is the earliest and most useful of machines in history. All other machine tools were some adaptation of a basic lathe. I would go for the lathe first, with milling attachments. Progress to a milling machine when work exceeds the capacity of the lathe. As a "second" machine, I would look toward a drill press. Maybe even before a lathe, if I were starting over from scratch. I bought a small machine (UniMat DB-200) when I was 18ish. It has followed me around the world a few times. It was convertable to a drill press and milling machine as part of the design. But it wouldn't do threading. I had to advance to a larger machine just to get threading. Had a Chinese "mini-lathe" existed at the time, that would have done it for me.

As far as the "machine vs welder" goes, that's a call you must make for yourself. I have had a stick welder since I got discharged from the military. Almost as long as I've had the lathe. . . There are several different modes of welding, Rod, MIG, TIG, and a few others. When you get into other materials, such as plastics, there are even more. I find a welder useful for working on a trailer, for example. But on my shop projects, I usually assemble them with screws. Again, the way I do things. The welder cannot be classed as a "machine tool". They serve completely different, although related. purposes.

If you can find it, a Mr Dave Gingery did a series of books about home built machine tools. Not to build the machines, but to learn the whys and hows of machine shop work. He was a lifelong machinist professionally. His insights into the basics have served me well as I pursued the hobby. I found a hardbound copy of the first six books that now has well worn pages.

You should keep in mind that you are approaching this as a hobby, not as a money making proposition. There is money to be made by the hobbyist, but that takes experience and time to gain yet more experience. Keep it a hobby and take any work you are comfortable with, when asked.

.

 

[synfinatic]

Start thinking that you have a 0.5 car garage and go for it.

LOL. Well I already have a 1.5 car garage since the motorcycle lift (see my avatar) is taking up one bay and the wife's car has never seen the inside of the garage. While working on projects my car (BMW M2) tends to get kicked out to make room, but then it's back in once I've cleaned up. Honestly, if it wasn't for the car the garage would be a disaster.

So I have a few thoughts, although I am officially just part of the peanut gallery. There is a writer, Kurt Vonnegut that has somewhat inspired me because of this...“I don’t think being good at things is the point of doing them. I think you’ve got all these wonderful experiences with different skills, and that all teaches you things and makes you an interesting person, no matter how well you do them.”

Funny, you're the 2nd person I've read on the internet to quote that Vonnegut line this week. It's definitely something that speaks to me. But yeah, I've been lurking and reading the PM forums, doing lots of research and reading all of David Best's posts which are super informative. Honestly, right now I'm trying to avoid discussing specific make/model of equipment because that seems like a whole different set of concerns. That and honestly, I think I have a better understanding of my lathe needs vs mill needs right now. But yeah... I figure make & models is probably best for another thread because I think that's a bit cart before the horse at this point.

So one thing I know about myself is that one of my key life skills is learning new skills. Learning new programing languages, Fusion360 or designing electronic circuits and PCB design. One of the big ways I've done this is by being aware of the fact that knowledge is often a pyramid: the less you know the less you realize you don't know- only after you start dipping your toe in does it often become obvious all the things you're missing. I've often been able to choose projects which allow me to learn incrementally without getting stuck by running into a vertical learning curve.

I think right now my big concern is that I realize there is a huge difference between machining and fabricating some parts using sheets of aluminum using a dremel, hacksaw and drill press. But watching various videos on the internet (This Old Tony, Blondihacks, etc) has me realizing that yeah, gonna need at least a lathe and a mill. I think I can probably punt on the welder (at least as long as my neighbor is willing to do it for me).

I will add one more must have machine to your pile, which is a metal band saw, w/o that how are you going to rough cut all your metal. Consider a PM-712G Horizontal/Vertical or Jet HVBS-710SG 7 x 10.5 Miter Band Saw to holiday buying spree. I have the Enco/MSC version 712G and it works decently, but if I were to do it again I would go with the Jet Swivel head which is much better for doing miters and such. Jet is running a year end rebate until the end of the year, so this model will come in at just over 2K delivered with the rebate. Mine has coolant, if I do a lot of cutting I use it, if infrequent I run dry with a good blade and manually apply some cutting oil for steel.

Hi Mark- been reading a lot of your posts too. I probably need to talk to you about VFD's at some point. So yeah, oofff I sorta was aware of that but hadn't really thought it through. No doubt cutting parts with a hack saw is gonna get old pretty fast. Honestly, I don't think I was thinking of dropping $2k on a bandsaw and I probably need to think about where I'm going to put it. I haven't done any real research on them and really have no idea what the difference is between a $1200 model and one which costs nearly twice the price.

Anyways, band saw is a great example of not-knowing what I don't know... or at least not connecting the dots in my head. Thank you.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I would start with the lathe first. See if you like the path you are taking and then as you develop the interests you will make better choices when it comes to the Mill and Welder.

Keep in mind that with the Lathe as well as the Mill the actual machine is only a small part of the list of tooling that will be required to actually make use of them. That too will depend on what you plan to do with it. But I can tell you that once you start, you will start to see the path and making the right choice will become easier.

Last bit of info, I like heavy machines, they are built to last a life time or two. They can be rebuilt many times, so don't shy away from used. Since you have little experience, ask your neighbor to check out any lathes or mills for you to ensure you won't have any major issues. Unless one of your hobbies is going to be rebuilding the machine you buy. Also with used equipment, you can often get them with a lot of tooling that you would otherwise have to buy with a new piece of equipment.

 

[7milesup]

Mark had some excellent points, my only disagreement, or should I say, alternative view is the bandsaw. I have a Harbor Freight 4x6 bandsaw. Probably one of the most common small bandsaws out there. With their 20% coupon it is a real good value. Many mods out there on the internet for it too. --->HF 4x6 Metal Bandsaw<--- There are some other options that are bigger... Northern tool has a 7x12 bandsaw that goes on sale every now and again for about $900. I almost pulled the trigger a couple of months ago but decided I was getting by with my HF 4x6. --->Northern Tool 7x12<--- It is currently on sale but only $50 off. Sometimes I think that a lot of this stuff is made in the same factory but not always the case. For example, I just bought a used Jet wood shaper, but would like a bigger one. Thinking that the Shop Fox might be good, I started to closely examine the fence system. Turns out the Jet had a much better design than the Shop Fox. Obviously you are smart enough to look closely at the differences. My money would go to the Northern Tool.
I see PC just replied above me. He has good advice about taking someone along to check a used machine over. I was going to buy a good used but gave up after a year of looking. In the next 5 or so years, I have seen exactly 2 used lathes that I would have liked to purchase but missed them. Most recently was a beautiful LeBlond Regal servo shift for $4500. I had the intention to drive right over to MSP to buy it but when I called, they were already loading it onto some guys trailer. I will probably never find one like that in the foreseeable future.

 

[mksj]

There are less expensive band saw options, The Northern Tools is quite expensive when you factor in it is a belt drive and expensive shipping. Many people get by with a smaller HF for under $300. The Jet price is inclusive of shipping, they have a belt version for a bit less. The PM-712 you may save some on shipping with a package deal. I prefer a gear drive because it is more compact and easier to change speeds. If you do mitering, the Jet swivel is more compact and a better overall design. They may all look alike but there are significant differences. On the band saw also check local stores, Craigslist, there are also some discounted ones that may have superficial damage. Just watch out for the shipping costs on machinery, typically anything over 1500 lbs cannot be placed on a lift gate for delivery. Other's have paid big $ for local riggers to delivery machines from the freight terminal.

I previously had my knee mill, PM-1340GT, band saw, table saw, miter saw and a full length garage work area with cabinets in a single garage bay. It was tight, the 1340GT and knee mill were the only two machines that didn't get moved out of the garage to use. Welding would be big issue in such a tight space, and there are also house insurance ramifications if you plan to do welding on the premises.

 

[synfinatic]

I went Lathe, then wire Welder (to make the table for the Mill) and then the Mill. But then, mixed in I also purchased metal cutting bandsaw (horizontal and vertical modes), engine hoist for lifting the mill, and a 12 ton press. I already had a belt sander, Grinder and drill press.

Oh a shop press... yeah another thing to add to the list.

Personally, I'd say get the lathe, then learn what you need out of a mill. Usually easier to find a guy who can weld than do machining.

Lathe is easy, bigger is better usually. Mill is a bit more complex. Are you mostly drilling holes, doing big facing cuts, or do you need CNC for complex work?

For the mill... "i don't know" is an honest answer. I'm not going to use it for production work so big cuts are relative. I definitely plan on starting with a manual mill & DRO (and probably X/Z drives) and CNC is a definite maybe, but definitely not a near term thing. Originally, I was thinking of just getting a lathe and skip the mill and then I was watching some This Old Tony videos on making tool holders and I'm "oh, yeah right... a mill is super useful to compliment a lathe." Mentally, I have a better understanding of what a vertical mill is capable of (especially with DRO and a rotary table) and I'm constantly amazed what is possible with a lathe... "wow, I had no idea that was even possible!" so I don't have a good idea just how far I can reasonably push things. That said I totally get that the lathe can do everything a mill can... just certain operations are a lot easier on one or the other. But yeah, certain things are just going to be a lot more accurate on one than the other. Part of me wants to spend a year building a matrix of which is better for different kinds of cuts, but I'd be better off just learning with my hands by doing.

Make a list of everything you want and start looking. Check things off of the list as you get them. It really doesn't matter which comes first. You are going to want it all any way. And don't be in a hurry. Unless you have the budget to buy new be prepared to go on lots of wild goose chases looking at worn out machines not worth buying. Don't forget to add the cost of tooling in your budget. Tooling up a lathe and mill can easily exceed what you paid for the lathe or mill. That is one advantage to buying used. It will often come with lots of tooling. I looked for over a year before I found my mill/drill and lathe. I found the mill first and then a couple of weeks later I found the lathe. Estate sales can be a good source to find a lightly used well taken care machine at fair prices. Often the family is just wanting to get rid of grandpa's junk.

You are very lucky to have a neighbor and a friend who are machinists. A lot of us have nothing more than the internet to guide us. Talk to them about your plans. They will most likely know somebody with a machine just gathering dust that can be had for a song just to get it out of their shop. And if you run into a problem you can run across the street to get some help.

Unfortunately, here in the Bay Area there's doesn't seem to be a lot of good options for used from what I've seen and I honestly am not really qualified to figure out what is a good deal vs. a disaster. There's also the fact that while there are used machines available, most of it is far far too large and heavy or it's some estate sale and a really old machine with a bunch of limitations that I'd find really annoying (like lots of change gears for metric threads). If money was tighter I'd look harder, but new is viable option for me. Hoping I might be able to find some deals on tooling though.

 

[MrWhoopee]

First off, let me quote the popular phrase "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". My point is that once you have the tool, you discover so many more uses for it than you imagined before.

Second, get the lathe. You can fake a lot of things that you would do on a mill, you just can't fake lathe work.

Third, watch the Craigslist ads section. I'm constantly posting interesting things and the Bay Area is within my search range. We also have members nearby that might be willing to assist in evaluating a machine. Enabling is really what we do best.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

I got my Mill (G0730) and my Lathe (G4003G) at the same time.

I used the mill much more often than the lathe when building my telescope (below) and found the mental processes to use a manual mill more difficult than when using the lathe.