Do Hobby Machinists prefer small CNC or small Manual machines at home?

[ps15toolroom]

I've noticed that small manual machines and accessories are much more desirable on ebay and at auction as opposed to stuff over 2000 lbs. A small high quality vintage mill will go for over $1000 while a 5000 lbs mill just goes for scrap. Clearly this is because people want something they can put in their garage or basement.
Now for my hypothetical question.
Suppose a company began making new compact and high quality machine tools specifically with home shop people in mind. Would you prefer CNC machines or Manual machines? Can the machines be compact yet heavy (not exceeding 2000 lbs)? Or do the machines need to be both compact and lighter weight? Do you need to make money or just have fun?
Me personally, I'm not put off by weight. If I had machine with a small work envelope but was made heavy so you still get rigidity and vibration damping I wouldn't mind. I'd also prefer something CNC or a hybrid design of manual with 2/3 axis conversational control.
Interested in hearing from you all

 

[twhite]

I can only speak for myself. My home shop is based off of what I can afford. Hence old used manual machines that I can repair and get going. If I had discretionary cash enough. I would for sure have both manual and CNC machines for my hobby.


Cutting oil is my blood.

 

[coolidge]

I think the issue is the hobby market (buyers) is so broad it would be difficult to impossible to offer 'a' machine that would fit more than a percentage of the market. Look at existing mills and lathes for the hobbyist today, there are bunches of them across a wide price range in umpteen sizes and weights.

Big 5,000lb used industrial machines go for scrap because they are scrap. Beat to death in production environments and at end of life. With no parts available to bring them back up to spec there's little more you can do with them other than scrap them.

I'd be a buyer of a high end hobby CNC mill. A tool changer would be a must have. It needs to be reasonably fast and it can't require 100 amps of single phase power like say the Haas Mini Mill 2's 15hp spindle.

I have been eyeing Haas machines for my hobby home shop. DT2's most recently. But the 100 amps of single phase power I'd need to rotary phase convert to 3 phase is off putting. That's half my 200amp service at the house. Bringing in another 200 amps from the street would cost thousands. So 5hp would probably be ideal for me.

 

[Ulma Doctor]

I’m old school when it comes to my preference for manual machines.
I do a lot of one and two offs.
I can preform the machining process before I could ever program them.
I’m a huge fan of CNC technology, i just have trepidation in falling down another rabbit hole

 

[Chipper5783]

I can only speak for myself, and as Coolidge pointed out the hobby range is very large. Most hobby users are extremely price conscious - so the market for a quality (high quality, heavily built, vibration damping) “hobby” machine is going to be small, which adds to the cost of what is already going to be expensive. Your inquiry begs clarification about what a “hobby” machine is. Strictly speaking it is just a machine used by someone engaged in this activity on a hobby basis - so that includes about every machine that has ever been made! Another interpretation is that a “hobby” machine is a cheap piece of crap machine - I know lots of hobbyists using very high class equipment (usually cast off industrial machines).

Please tell me what the definition of a “hobby” machine tool is? I really am a hobby guy (though the hobby is mostly just fixing non-functional machine tools, occasionally I’ll make something that actually leaves the building). I have about #40,000 of machine tools - that is certainly not unique (weird perhaps, but I’ve got plenty of company). I think that makes all my machines “hobby” machines.

I started out with manual machines (CNC was pricey in the early ‘80s), my starter lathe was/is #2500, my little mill has a 13”x8”x12” work envelope (and weighs #2000). I have about a dozen machines, I only paid real money for that first lathe. Everything else came as a project. I am an example of “extremely price conscious”, yes I’m cheap. The machine you are talking about is not something I would ever buy - too expensive. My approach is to get old (1950’s through the’90s - not really all that old), industrial machines and fix them up. So far this approach has worked out pretty well - mostly lucky, perhaps some skill? Certainly I have walked away from many machine projects because I didn’t think I would be able to deal with them, that said most of the machine opportunities came to me because others felt they were just scrap (too rusty, missing parts, no documentation, defunct manufacturer). I figure if I am paying scrap metal prices, I can usually get most of my money back.

Old industrial machines are certainly not all thrashed and worn out, quite often they are simply not economical to operate (fully serviceable, minor wear - just obsolete). My experience has been that they usually need a good cleaning, servicing, repair of a bunch of minor issues and sourcing tooling. Most of the machines in my signature line were projects, there is a story behind each one, but they all now work well. I have gone CNC with cast off industrial machines, both #7000 - #8000 range, from the late 90’s. The VMC came with some tooling that would have cost more than what I paid for the package. The CNC lathe was priced at $0.10/pound. Fortunately the manuals were included. Both machines had issues, but I like messing around with and fixing machines (especially when baited out that it “can’t be repaired”). So far I guess I’ve been lucky as no insurmountable issues have come up (tool changer gear motor, tool holder grippers, computer power supplies, mother board on the terminal interface computer, spindle drive module, z-axis scale - and countless little things). Certainly if I’d had to call in a technician every time - it just wouldn’t be worth it. No doubt, one day some critical component is going to fail (and I’ll be very sad), but I have learned a lot and had a great time accessing machine capabilities that I could never have afforded.

My use is probably split 50/50 between the manual and CNC machines. Basically no machine can do everything, maybe I have a setup on the VMC, so I’ll work the next project on the Huron mill. I’m building a chuck mounting flange on the manual lathe because on the CNC lathe I have no way to hold a 13” disk (easily done on the manual lathe’s 14” 4J). The manual machines are still handy to have.

I think Coolidge has answered your question. The quality, capable, hobby machines are certainly available already. That Haas he pointed out would make a great hobby machine. Of course it is expensive, but Haas would be happy to sell it to a hobby guy. In terms of the power requirements (?), I’m on only a 100 amp single phase service, feeding a 20hp phase perfect. I have stalled out the VMC (15hp), the CNC lathe nameplate asks for 30kva (though I’ve never really loaded it up), I often have a CNC running, plus a manual machine, and then have the 5hp air compressor kick on (plus there are house loads on the same electrical service) - never tripped that 100A supply breaker. In fairness, I think the CNCs run pretty gentle as they don’t have full voltage across the line contactors for starting.

To answer your question, both CNC and manual machines. My turn to ask a question, please define what a hobby machine tool is?

 

[matthewsx]

CNC provides another learning curve beyond just learning the basics of machining (material selection, tool selection, feeds and speeds, etc.)

So, while some folks might start out with a CNC, most will go with a manual machine as their first purchase. This may change as people who started out with 3D printing begin to outnumber those of us who started before numerical control was common even in commercial shops.

We have a Tormach dealer locally and I think they do a pretty good job with machines that meet the needs of hobbyists and commercial prototype folks.

I built my own CNC mill/drill a while back and learned a lot in the process. Ultimately my experiment wasn’t going to be ridged or
accurate enough, but what I really learned is I enjoy the tactile experience of working a manual machine.

I’d love to have a small CNC eventually but it’s pretty far down on my list.

I agree there needs to be a little more definition from the OP.

John

 

[SouthernChap]

Big 5,000lb used industrial machines go for scrap because they are scrap. Beat to death in production environments and at end of life. With no parts available to bring them back up to spec there's little more you can do with them other than scrap them.

My perception differs from yours, I'd say.

Now grant you, I'm in the UK, which is a very different market; much more urbanised than the States and largely due to this, many people would struggle these days to change a fuse in a plug, let alone even recognise what a lathe looks like; our whole culture has pretty much totally forgotten its industrial heritage. Also, here in the UK, our property plots sizes are much smaller. If a property even has a garage (many older smaller houses, say terraced 2 bed properties don't have them, and new 3 bed properties are being built without) it is often a small 1 car garage.

One of, if not the first, things that comes into my mind when looking at a machine is, can I fit this in my workshop and if it will fit, how easy will it be to get it from where it is to my kerbside and then into my workshop.

Then where would it go? My workshop is in a 1.5 car garage. Note the word 'in'; about a third is given over to acting as a garden shed, since my garden doesn't have the space for one. With a small lathe (I have a little 7x but it's in a space that will take a Boxford, Colchester Bantam/Chipmaster, Harrison L5/M300) mill (RF-25 type), band saw (5"), grinding bench and workbench, I'm pretty much at capacity.

I would dearly love a surface grinder and honestly, at any given time, I can go on eBay, FBM, or one of the used machine tool dealers and find, oh say, at least 3 tidy looking Jones and Shipmans for betwen around £600 - £900.

But they're kinda on the heavy side and pretty bulky so I'd have to arrange loading and transport (if doing it myself, I'd need to hire a hiab and learn how to palletise and rig properly). Then there's the task of getting it from the kerbside into my workshop. That's a pallet truck hire and a potentially 'exciting' afternoon's work.

Then, since most larger kit tends to be three phase (another reason the demand for many larger industrial machines is low in the hobby market), there's getting a VFD or RPC sorted.

So a bunch of cost, hassle and potential safety issues.

I would guess the situation for hobbyists in the States is probably a lesser version of the above. Maybe space restraints are less of an issue and many will have access to a pickup truck and forklifts. Still and all, it would give many people pause

 

[Mini Cooper S]

Both!

Most of my work is one or two parts that I can use the manual machine faster than programing and setting up the CNC. (Usually, there are exceptions) If I have to make enough parts, I would use my CNC. The CNC does however open up some interesting possibilities though, like engraving and arced slots. (I don't have the appropriate rotary table for arced slots)

Bottom line, if you can only have one, I would go with the manual mill.

Richard

 

[ps15toolroom]

To answer your question, both CNC and manual machines. My turn to ask a question, please define what a hobby machine tool is?

To give a little more clarification to my post. In my title I say "Hobby Machinists" as in members of this website. This could include people who are purely hobbyists to people who are running side businesses or main business out of their home/garage/basement.
In the body of my post I use the term "Home Shop". I've arbitrarily defined a home size machine as probably not more than 2000 lbs. Now some people are fortunate enough to have barns and side buildings where they could get something much bigger in there but I think 2000 lbs is a reasonable weight range.
I'm not trying to define a hobby machine. I'm just seeing what members of this site are most interested in if they could have a new "small" machine. When I say compact and high quality that could mean something built to the same size as a Grizzly mill but to a much higher standard of quality. The price of such a machine being affordable to the home user, of course, goes without saying.

 

[borges1]

Sounds like you are trying to find the market viability of an above average grade hobby/low volume commercial machine. For me this is the sweet spot right now - both for my business and hobbies. I run a custom wood thingy shop - and i have a mix of intro level industrial and consumer grade tools for that. i'm constantly disappointed by the consumer grade stuff - but don't have the space for better tools in some cases. cost is always a consideration, but for a physically constrained shop, be it commercial or hobby, its usually the footprint. I'd buy a reasonably priced metal cnc at 2000lbs probably tomorrow. But i see the argument for lighter machines. FWIW i bought a PM833 to try and meet the space/cost/quality criteria. for a manual can you beat that mill on price/size/cost? seems like an obvious starting point

as an aside i used to wonder why milling/cnc machines arent designed from hollow steel, filled by the end user with sand to increase mass and dampening. that would be an easy design win i thought. then i realized most of the basic castings are all the same, readily available, and ancient; and i was envisioning a much more costly welded construction. but i still think its a good idea. surely there is some outfit somewhere using automated machines to make small scale welded tube steel constructions to order? like the zillion places offering one-off cnc services. but i haven't seen it