Changing knurls on LMS knurler.

jschmidling said:
Who is Chris and I saw no such tips in the description before purchasing.

On the other hand, if they didn't include the extra knurls, I would probably be doing something else right now.

It just bothers me that someone would continue selling a product for 20 years that has such a design flaw and not fix it.

js
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You not owning the right tools or not having spare snap rings doesn't make it a design flaw. There are many places that some people knurl close to a shoulder that the Nylock nut/shoulder bolt is not a solution. Snap rings are a common low profile pin retainer. Other brands use a tiny tiny set screw drilled/tapped in the top of the arm to retain the screw and I have heard multiple tool makers cuss when trying to find the tiny allen for it or get a chip out of the hex of the set screw.
 
Agreed I can't believe they would sell something with 3 sets of interchangeable knurls and put on what they (apparently) describe as one time use snap rings, and not include any extras. I admittedly didn't deeply research this, but I did look at the product listing and it seems like a design flaw for sure. (edit: its the fact that they are one time use snap rings on something designed to be changed... not that they didn't include extra snap rings, that is a design flaw. Are reusable snap rings a penny more?)
 
jschmidling said:
Who is Chris and I saw no such tips in the description before purchasing.

On the other hand, if they didn't include the extra knurls, I would probably be doing something else right now.

It just bothers me that someone would continue selling a product for 20 years that has such a design flaw and not fix it.

js
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Go to the website, click on Chris's tips and read. You do realize that he just distributes that product, he did not design it.
Let me help:
knurl_lmi.jpg
 
AmericanMachinist said:
Agreed I can't believe they would sell something with 3 sets of interchangeable knurls and put on what they (apparently) describe as one time use snap rings, and not include any extras. I admittedly didn't deeply research this, but I did look at the product listing and it seems like a design flaw for sure. (edit: its the fact that they are one time use snap rings on something designed to be changed... not that they didn't include extra snap rings, that is a design flaw. Are reusable snap rings a penny more?)
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Have mixed feelings on this. Requiring new snap rings was clearly disclosed, whether someone read it or not. Face it, these things are made to a price point. If you want something much better, spend more on a higher quality tool, or make your own. I made my own knurler, based on a design posted on HM. It doesn't use snap rings at all. Instead there are slits partially cut in the HSS axles and washers that engage the slit. Works great. With a little ingenuity, one probably could modify the LMS knurler similarly. But, single use snap rings, they're not so hot. Actually, you should clean your knurls and inspect the axles after every use. Single use snap rings don't make that convenient at all.
PXL_20210610_203603633.jpg
Although snap rings and e-clips have their place, I don't care for them at all. Think they are a pain in the neck to install and remove. The common snap ring tools don't work well.

For what it is worth, all of my dealings with LMS have been great. They have even shipped me parts for my mini-lathe (which I broke) at no charge. Most companies would not have done that! (Full disclosure, I did buy my mini-lathe from LMS.) The ER32 chuck that I got from them was bolt on and like 0.0001" runout. The blemished 3" toolmakers vise was really nice, it was very hard to even find the cosmetic problem. That vise has served me well. I did have to polish an internal surface on the vice, as it was eating screws. Have contacted them with questions about parts they sell and they have provided good insight on the product.
 
AmericanMachinist said:
Agreed I can't believe they would sell something with 3 sets of interchangeable knurls and put on what they (apparently) describe as one time use snap rings, and not include any extras. I admittedly didn't deeply research this, but I did look at the product listing and it seems like a design flaw for sure. (edit: its the fact that they are one time use snap rings on something designed to be changed... not that they didn't include extra snap rings, that is a design flaw. Are reusable snap rings a penny more?)
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Small snap rings, of the highest quality, are one time use items. Its a fact of life. The dimensions just don't work out well for the spring return of the metal.

3483.jpg

This type of snap ring plier works very well. I normally use lang as they made this style for half a dozen other companies and are fairly inexpensive compared to the awesome knipex but still work quite well. There hasn't been a snap ring yet under 2" I have had trouble with the 12 piece set at work. I have the knipex at home as my current job doesn't allow us to use our own tools.

If you notice the pins are slightly bent inwards (set for internal snap rings). The tool converts from inside/outside by unscrewing the knob and flipping the halves over. The pins for an external snap ring position will lean outwards. This is the big difference between the replaceable tip tools that make it work so much better without slipping off. The replaceable tip models are to big physically as well for small rings making them awkward.
 
Firebrick43 said:
Small snap rings, of the highest quality, are one time use items. Its a fact of life. The dimensions just don't work out well for the spring return of the metal.

3483.jpg

This type of snap ring plier works very well. I normally use lang as they made this style for half a dozen other companies and are fairly inexpensive compared to the awesome knipex but still work quite well. There hasn't been a snap ring yet under 2" I have had trouble with the 12 piece set at work. I have the knipex at home as my current job doesn't allow us to use our own tools.

If you notice the pins are slightly bent inwards (set for internal snap rings). The tool converts from inside/outside by unscrewing the knob and flipping the halves over. The pins for an external snap ring position will lean outwards. This is the big difference between the replaceable tip tools that make it work so much better without slipping off. The replaceable tip models are to big physically as well for small rings making them awkward.
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Thanks for the recommendation for this tool. Many snap ring tools are an abomination, only useful to remelt into something else. I will look out for this tool next time I have to deal with snap rings.
 
woodchucker said:
Go to the website, click on Chris's tips and read. You do realize that he just distributes that product, he did not design it.
Let me help:
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This is sort of after the fact, no? There is no link on the ordering page to this tip.

Further more, I quote from email:

Jack,

We designed and developed these units about 20 years ago.....,

Regards,
Roger Proffitt

I was told the same thing when ordering it over the phone.

I was either lied to or he doesn't know what he is talking about, The only reason I bought it from them is because of that statement.
The exact same product is available from many sources for half the price and much less for variations on the theme.

It's sort of like selling a drill press with a set of drills but no chuck. Just unweld the drill that's installed and weld in a new one.

I sold my business and retired at 43 because I listened to my customers.

The overwhelming opinion just on this thread is that it is a design flaw.

My fix would be to replace the snap ring with a very small cotter pin. A bent piece of wire would probably out live the user in a hobby environment
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The shaft does not appear to be hardened so it would be pretty easy to do.

Jack
 
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If the shaft isn't hardened, that could work. However, the shaft should be hardened to resist wear. There are pretty high forces on the small diameter pin when knurling. In higher end knurlers the shafts are either HSS, or carbide. See if a file scratches the pin. If it does, then you may be able to drill it.
 
If LMS is watching this thread, I have a simple solution for this issue of low quality retainers used with this knurler, include 4 additional retainers with each package and increase the price by a few cents, once the customer tries to change to a new set of wheels, it will become apparent that next time they'll need more and likely better retainers.
I have never had a reason not to be a loyal LMS supporter and this thread will not change anything but frankly it still bothers me to read negative reviews or unflattering comments about them, they (IMHO) deserve better .
 
So in my humble opinion, they did not design the snap rings. Chineese snap rings are generally made like that in the smaller sizes. I bought a pack of assorted snap rings (made in china). The smaller sizes were made that way. USA sourced are not.

Again, they didn't design the snap ring, the company in china that is building for them buy their snap rings. They don't source them from the US. You guys believe what you want, I don't fault LMS. But I will defend them on this. I have only bought one item from LMS, A small item. So I have no skin in the game, but you are being overly critical in my opinion of something that is outside their control for the price.

The fact that someone wants the warning on the order page, when it was clearly on the item page under Chris's tips.. well, that's just bizarre. It also earned an ignore. I am now going to unwatch this as well. I'm probably going to get roasted for my opinion, but I feel that this type of stuff could be handled with the vendor better than here. Could they include new snap rings made in USA ... yes. Talk to the LMS. Talking here won't get you far. To bad mouth the vendor and not buy from them... well, that's your prerogative, but I won't cancel them out.
 
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