In a new John Deere 5105 ML I had the dealer bill me for what I thought was warranty work, because they claimed the Def in the tractor was out of spec. I use the same def in two Cummins engines and one Cat engine and never have had any issues. The 5105 Ml only has about 300 hours and I purchased an extended 5 year warranty. A 781.00 bill to drain out the def and replace it. They also changed out the exhaust gas cooler which they did cover under warranty. Could the def be bad in just that one engine when it is running fine in the other engines? I have never had problems with Def before. Has anyone had problems with def?
-
Welcome back Guest! Did you know you can mentor other members here at H-M? If not, please check out our Relaunch of Hobby Machinist Mentoring Program!
Can def go bad in three months over the winter?
- Thread starter Nutfarmer
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2019
- Messages
- 6,898
While not specifically John Deere DEF, I had VW Bluetec diesels for a number of years and had several litres of AdBlue fluid stored. It had a two year shelf life if I recall correctly.
Edit: I recalled incorrectly... apparently one year if unopened, six months if opened.
My question is this: If the DEF is in the tank is there some test they perform to know that the DEF is out of spec?
Edit: I recalled incorrectly... apparently one year if unopened, six months if opened.
My question is this: If the DEF is in the tank is there some test they perform to know that the DEF is out of spec?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2015
- Messages
- 9,847
There's a reason they paint those tractors green...
Damn, that's ridiculous, a pump could pull that out in no time... why so high? Greed.
Damn, that's ridiculous, a pump could pull that out in no time... why so high? Greed.
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2015
- Messages
- 12,316
Seems extravagant to me- apparently it's just urea and H20
And why did they need to change it? You guys do smog checks on those things?
John Deere Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) - SWDEF025
www.greenpartstore.com
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
- Messages
- 7,501
Proper DEF Storage
DEF is considered a non-hazardous solution of aqueous urea with a shelf life of up to two years. Since DEF is primarily de-ionized water, its shelf life is affected by fluctuating temperatures and exposure to direct sunlight and ambient air. Storage temperatures should not exceed 86°F (30°C) or go below 12°F (-11°C) and tank caps should be closed tightly to avoid evaporation, re-ionization and crystallization. Since DI water has had all metals removed from it, it is commonly known as “hungry water” because of its tendency to attract minerals and metals from ambient air.The re-ionization of DEF from exposure to ambient air affects the product’s microparticulate solutionization by drying it out and making it impossible to re-solutionize to 100%. For this reason, maintaining a closed system is essential. DEF also has the potential to corrode certain metals such as carbon steel, zinc, copper and aluminum, therefore choosing the appropriate storage container is important to maintain the integrity of the product as well as to prevent leakage.
From: https://www.sclubricants.com/proper-def-storage-diesel-exhaust-fluid/
Also: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/SB-10051649-7535.pdf and
FAQs for Diesel Exhaust Fluids (DEF) | JME Ellsworth
www.jmesales.com
The only problems we've ever experienced with DEF were operator induced. Def "Systems", sure. It's a mechanical thing like any other, and every now and again it'll ask for a part, but overall they're pretty reliable.
I'm not familiar with John Deere, as we've avoided them (mostly) simply due to their unwilllingness to allow us to look after our own machines. But modern after-treatment isn't entirely rocket surgery. You might or might not like anything I can come up with having one hand tied behind my back (no idea how they implement or monitor the system...)
First though, yes, DEF can go bad, and the time isn't really relevant. Poorly stored, it can be dead in no time at all. Chemical contamination is instant. Concentration can be off, but that takes time. In practice, if it's kept clean and stored well, it'll almost always outlast it's shelf life. (no guarantees, but almost always).
Did the dealer or any of your paperwork say or imply exactly what method they used to determine the DEF was bad?
Can I assume that "exhaust cooler" is actually the "EGR cooler? If that is the case, than I've got questions I won't be able to answer....
If indeed the DEF did need changing, "most" DEF filler necks can either have their filter/strainer pulled out to allow pumping it out, or they have a drain to drain it out, or they have a scan tool function to pump it out of one line or another using the onboard equpment. But it's John Deere, so maybe they don't... But I have a hard time with that price. The time, the replacement fluid, and disposal, which is generally tossed under the hazardous disposal fee, because although DEF isn't hazmat, it takes all the same steps and all the same costs, and all the same headaches to dispose of it. That's three or four hours... You can do a bunch in three or four hours. But you're on (what appears to be) a very specialized tractor, and specialized machines tend to have compromises in serviceability to get the specialty features built in. Maybe the shape/size/profile makes cramped access? I guess I have a hard time with that price, but at the same time it is NOT high enough to raise a red flag in and of it's self, without knowing more than I do.
What did the tractor actually go in for? What was your specific complaint?
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2021
- Messages
- 3,271
I expect it's shop rate around $180/hour, and that includes time moving the tractor in/out of the shop, finding the service manual on the computer for that model (possibly waiting for a turn on the computer), and following the diagnostics to check off a few things before actually swapping the DEF. Whether or not the DEF was bad, the diagnostics procedure in the manual probably said to do it. Basically you're paying labor time to follow a step by step procedure. Yes, pricey. And Deere is often cited as an example of problems in "right to repair" arguments. You could ask for (if you didn't get) how many hours of labor that $781 covered.
I paid the $580 to download the PDF service manual on mine, a 5085M. Fortunately mine is just prior to the DEF requirements. Needed the schematics in the manual to trace down why the tractor kept blowing a fuse rather than starting. $15 sensor was bad (shorted). I have no doubt that I paid for the cost of the manual just in that repair. And the time to haul the tractor to the dealer and pick it up pretty much covered my time working on it.
Last edited:
They said a Def refractometer was used to check the def with. The def that was removed was clear. The original reason for the call was a yellow check engine light. The extended warranty was an extra 5000.00 The engines all seem to have problems with all the extra sensors and pollution control devices. That was my reason to purchase the expensive extended warranty.
Similar threads
