Brazing v.s. silver solder / silver brazing

I build lugged bicycle frames as a hobby, using silver brazing rod to join the pieces. "Silver soldering" is sort of a misnomer, since most joining work using silver is actually "brazing." To my knowledge, silver soldering is more of a water pipe thing.

I use oxy-acetylene and, typically, 56% silver brazing rod. A paste flux is needed. Warm the joint to a dull red, then feed in the silver. It will suck into the joint, and you can further move the silver using the "follow the heat" methodology. Once you get the hang of it, it's great fun. I don't pretend to be a skilled welder by any means, but my bike frames have held up just fine over the years...

P1040129 by nessism, on Flickr
 
I disagree @Jake M about Mapp Pro, it is hotter than propane. I know as I have been unable to Aluminum braze on some bigger pieces with propane, but with mapp pro (map for short from now on) I had no problem. It's enough to keep the heat where I need it, while the Aluminum tries to heat sink it away.
 
I disagree @Jake M about Mapp Pro, it is hotter than propane. I know as I have been unable to Aluminum braze on some bigger pieces with propane, but with mapp pro (map for short from now on) I had no problem. It's enough to keep the heat where I need it, while the Aluminum tries to heat sink it away.

I don't think I disagreed with that, and I'm pretty sure I did say that I keep one for that reason. It is 1.03 times as hot after all..... The number of times that .03 difference actually makes a difference, it doesn't warrant paying three plus times as much for a fuel gas that you're already buying in (almost) the most expensive way possible.

...I can not keep even a "small" oxy bottle on the property (Yet propane or MapPro is ok for a blowtorch??),.....

A leaking fuel gas bottle (within reason) presents a fire hazard, as it could be lit on fire. A leaking oxygen bottle, that has the potential to make everything around it a fire hazard, including "flame proof" and "fire proof" things start to either spontaneously combust, or to "touch off" from normal operation, when otherwise that might not happen. A good whiff through the furnace, the clothes dryer, light switches... Everything becomes a risk. At lower quantities where we're talking about (rough math) 10 cubic feet in the bottle once it's released, a more likely scenerio is that it's a slow leak, where it'll raise the oxygen content in a full basement, under an average sized house, by a few percent. Because fire spread geometrically, that little "kick" at the beginning will happily take an unrelated fire from burning the shop, garage, barn, house down, to burning it down so fast that nobody can react. Insurance companies want nothing to do with it. (or they charge a premium). And regulatory bodies have their rules written in blood. (Even if it was the blood of stupid people). It raises costs in property losses and loss of life way, way more than fuel gasses do. (Like for like of course, comparing comparable volumes).
 
I strongly recommend the use of oxygen concentrators for brazing instead of bottled O2. Much safer, and other than the little bit of electricity they use, you have unlimited free O2 from then on. OK there is the initial cost of the concentrator (they're stupidly expensive when new, so buy used) and some maintenance costs if parts wear out — nothing on mine has yet. It cost $200 when I got it a few years ago and sometimes I see them even cheaper. They're medical devices so they tend to be well made. They're often available cheap because the patient died and the family just wants rid of it. Ignore the small/portable ones; they're expensive due to miniaturazation and ability to run off a battery, so the bigger 120V AC ones are cheaper.

Your competition, the other people likely to buy it before you get there, tends to be lampworkers or glass-blowers.

Mine puts out 5 liter per minute at somewhere upward of 90% pure O2. It keeps up with the torch tip sizes I tend to use, short of a rosebud.
10 l/min devices exist, but 5 l/min is much more common. 10 l/min ones tend to sell for lots more, like over double, so if you want to run a rosebud it's probably better to buy two 5 l/min units and run them in parallel with a Y hose adapter.

I use a standard 20 lb propane bottle, available at the grocery down the street. No more trips to the welding supply for bottled gas! And it shouldn't make your insurance company lose their excrement.

You do pretty much need propane-specific tips, because the flame detaches and blows out if you use acetylene tips. There are workarounds but the best tips I've found are from Paige tools. They make a pointy concentrated flame not too different from an O/A torch, and they never blow out. I use them with a Smith AW1, a classic "aircraft" style welding torch, and with a Meco Midget, but Paige makes adapters for several other torch types, like Victor, Harris, and clones thereof. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

Where I'm comin' from, like why should you believe me? Over 20 years of brazing every day (silver and brass) in a production environment. Not an expert, as in I didn't get an advanced degree in the science of it or anything, but 20 years of practice did give me some clue as to what's going on. Most of that time I used both acetylene and propane, like evey day, so I'm very familiar with the differences between them. Propane, with the right tips, now suffices for everything acetylene can do, short of gas-welding of steel, which I never do. (If I want to weld, I have TIG.) I now believe there's no good reason for anyone to use acetylene anymore, though YMMV.
 
I strongly recommend the use of oxygen concentrators for brazing instead of bottled O2. Much safer, and other than the little bit of electricity they use, you have unlimited free O2 from then on. OK there is the initial cost of the concentrator (they're stupidly expensive when new, so buy used) and some maintenance costs if parts wear out — nothing on mine has yet. It cost $200 when I got it a few years ago and sometimes I see them even cheaper. They're medical devices so they tend to be well made. They're often available cheap because the patient died and the family just wants rid of it. Ignore the small/portable ones; they're expensive due to miniaturazation and ability to run off a battery, so the bigger 120V AC ones are cheaper.

Your competition, the other people likely to buy it before you get there, tends to be lampworkers or glass-blowers.

Mine puts out 5 liter per minute at somewhere upward of 90% pure O2. It keeps up with the torch tip sizes I tend to use, short of a rosebud.
10 l/min devices exist, but 5 l/min is much more common. 10 l/min ones tend to sell for lots more, like over double, so if you want to run a rosebud it's probably better to buy two 5 l/min units and run them in parallel with a Y hose adapter.

I use a standard 20 lb propane bottle, available at the grocery down the street. No more trips to the welding supply for bottled gas! And it shouldn't make your insurance company lose their excrement.

You do pretty much need propane-specific tips, because the flame detaches and blows out if you use acetylene tips. There are workarounds but the best tips I've found are from Paige tools. They make a pointy concentrated flame not too different from an O/A torch, and they never blow out. I use them with a Smith AW1, a classic "aircraft" style welding torch, and with a Meco Midget, but Paige makes adapters for several other torch types, like Victor, Harris, and clones thereof. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

Where I'm comin' from, like why should you believe me? Over 20 years of brazing every day (silver and brass) in a production environment. Not an expert, as in I didn't get an advanced degree in the science of it or anything, but 20 years of practice did give me some clue as to what's going on. Most of that time I used both acetylene and propane, like evey day, so I'm very familiar with the differences between them. Propane, with the right tips, now suffices for everything acetylene can do, short of gas-welding of steel, which I never do. (If I want to weld, I have TIG.) I now believe there's no good reason for anyone to use acetylene anymore, though YMMV.
good info, but the price appears to be in the $400 and up for a used home concentrator.
But it's good to know, it will support a small torch.
 
good info, but the price appears to be in the $400 and up for a used home concentrator.
But it's good to know, it will support a small torch.
Just last week I saw one for $150, so patience might be rewarded. Of course Seattle versus New Jersey might make a difference, but things aren't generally cheaper here. You just have to wait for someone to die and the bereaved to want to be rid of the thing.

I agree my torch is small, but I can braze stuff up to 1/4", and I don't think that's the outer limit, just the thickest I personally have brazed.
I still cruise CL now and then looking for another concentrator, because I'm tempted to try running two at once for bigger stuff. I have a cracked cast iron vise I'm thinking of brazing. My go-to for big heating jobs is two torches, one in each hand, though of course you can get the same heat with one bigger tip, and keeping it moving. But I like the extra control I get with two torches. And when the pre-heat is done, I set one torch down on my "gas saver", a switch that turns the torch off, to finish the job with just the other torch.

Speaking of big flames, do y'all know about the maximum withdrawal rate for acetylene? If you exceed the max withdrawal rate, you get acetone bubblin up through your regulator and into your hose, where it eats the rubber. Can damage the regulator too. If you don't catch it, that can cause a blowout through the hose or even the reg, resulting in a big flame where you don't want it. If you do catch it in time, you're only looking at the cost of a new hose and a regulator rebuild.

The max rate is a function of the bottle size, so the biggest flame you can sustain depends on how big the bottle is. The little jeweler's size bottles can only make a flame big enough for jewelry. For a really big flame, you might need an obnoxiously large bottle, or you can gang up two or more moderate size bottles on a manifold. I understand that's done sometimes in industry but I have never done it myself. As a rough rule, no rosebud tips unless your A bottle is upward of 300 cu.ft. Although you can get away with exceeding the recommended max somewhat, for brief periods. The 1/7th rule is for sustained use.

Propane doesn't have any such limit, tho in extreme cases the regulator can freeze up. I have seen my propane reg with frost on it, but I've never had it stop working. I think it's fail-safe, because the symptom is your flame goes out.
 
Thanks for the tip bulgie. I didnt know what the concentrator was called, it’s now on my CL want list.

If anybody is interested in soldering and working metal Wes Lee’s channel on YouTube is fascinating. He takes totally trashed band instruments and makes them look like new. He’s also the first one I ever saw use a concentrator.

 
As a musician that is a very interesting video to me. A very interesting process of slow, methodical, careful work.

Given how badly damaged that bell was, that really is craftsmanship at its finest.
 
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