Borescope results?

[Papa Charlie]

I believe that you are referring to Eric Cortina, self appointed "pro shooter" that uses CLR. What ever works. I cant knock it because I havent tried it. I like your cleaning regiment. I'm sure it works fine. The issue that we have in benchrest is that we have 30 minutes between relays. In that 30 minutes, we have to remove all of our equipment from the shooting bench, clean our rifle, go to the loading bench, clean, size, prime, and load about 10 rounds of ammo for the next relay. we also try to look at our previous targets and make decisions on changing the load or loading another 10 rounds with a different powder charge to test during the next relay. Many times we are shooting hot loads and that causes major copper fouling. In addition, some of the powders that we use can be extremely dirty and cause powder fouling. We clean after each relay to stay ahead of the fouling (unless your name is Dan and you molycoat your bullets - he cleans once a day) In our spare time at the loading bench, we try to watch the conditions to determine what condition we want to shoot in.

Yes sorry I was referring to Erik Cortina. Sorry I have trouble with names.

As for BR. Your competition is unbelievably amazing. The groups that I have seen are to die for. I haven't the resources to attempt it.

My participation in F-Class was by pure chance. I didn't even know what it was when I started. I loved shooting my Rem 700 at 200 meters and trying for the tightest group I could. A friend told me about the matches at another club he was a member of where they shot F-Class and they allowed nonmembers to participate shooting at 500 yards. Well it only took one visit, it was kind of embarrassing as I had a muzzle break on my rifle and they are not allowed. But they were understanding so, when it was my turn they piled up range bags on both sides of me to shield the adjacent shooters. My rifle was a ADL from Cabela's, stock Bull barrel, in a stock plastic stock, Cabela's 12 power scope and a BiPod I think I had paid like $80 for. No rest, nothing fancy and using store bought ammo.

This was 4 years ago and needless to say I was hooked. My rifle, optics and my reloading process has transformed over the years into what is a very competitive F-TR rifle. I am no expert by any means. I shoot against myself as many of the shooters are National Champions in F-TR, F-Open and Match Rifles or Sling. I enjoy shooting, but only shoot at the club, which I am now a member and also an RSO.

I have only won one match, but have placed several times. Again, my goal is to improve myself and I try very hard not to try and compete against my fellow shooters as it messes with my head more than I care to admit to. But I love this sport and wish I had the where with all to travel to other matches and compete and learn with the people I shoot with and have the highest respect for. They are what makes this sport so great. They have taught me so much and shared so much.

You don't need to start out with a $4000 rifle. Many of the rifles that these champions shoot are many times that and often carry more than one rifle to a match. I can tell you that you can start out very modestly and grow. I have tracked all my gear, both bought and sold over the time and I mean every single piece. My scope and my Benchmark barrel are probably the two pieces of equipment that made the largest difference. Of course having the action trued and blueprinted at Benchmark was part of the basics. But the biggest two parts of F-Class that I would say is the reloading and the ability to read the environment. Over time, my reloading has become rock solid. I actually enjoy the precision reloading as much as I do the shooting. My SD is generally below 7 over a match of 66 rounds.

If there was one thing I lack, besides an expensive rifle is the ability to read and understand wind and mirage. I do pretty good, but there is always those times when a round that should have gone right goes left. But that is part of this game. Once of these days, I am going to travel over to Rattle Snake and shoot a 1000 yard match. This is very open country and I have heard that the winds can cause you to feel like you are lining up on the adjacent shooters target. Maybe an exaggeration but hopefully I will find out for myself.

@cdhknives If you want to try competition, by all mean do it with what you have. Waiting for everything to be perfect sucks. Done that too much.

Happy shooting guys.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Yep, Earl described it just about right. That is where I am headed this weekend. The first match I have shot in over a year.
Joe

Good shooting!

 

[Earl]

My experience in competitive shooting has been that if you want to compete with the "Big Kids", you need to have the best equipment that you can build or buy because they do. After that, the old saying that the famous benchrest shooter Skip Otto (deceased) used to say was - "It aint the arrows, it's the Indian." Wind reading is an art after you understand the science. There are many, many factors that affect where the bullet impacts the target. Consider the range layout. Most ranges that I have shot on are North/South layouts. The earth is rotating at 1000 MPH (24k miles at the equator, 24 hours in a day) That 1000 mph (less since we are not on the equator) moves your target after the bullet leaves the barrel and before the bullet arrives at the target. That is why you have to adjust the scope when you go to different ranges. Another thing to consider is the direction of twist in the rifling. Right hand twist barrel will have the bullet go down and to the right in a left to right wind condition. A right to left wind condition will cause the bullet to move up and to the left. Looking at your targets will tell you what the wind was doing. Left hand twist barrels do exactly the opposite. The best shooting barrel that I ever had was a left twist. It was given to me by a great shooter that couldn't adjust to it. The barrel shot wonderfully until there was a "wind direction reverse" at which time I was in competition and forgot about the twist. I passed that barrel on to another shooter who later that year cursed me out at a match. Those are just a couple of factors effecting bullet impact. The first match I ever attended, I thought that bench shooter were egotists. Every bench had their own set of wind flags. 4 or 5 of them between the bench and the target a 100 yards. I now use 5 at 100 yards and 8 at 200 yards. Wind is local. Very local. I have seen wind flags that were no more than 20 feet apart pointing at each other! When you see a hundred or so wind flag spread across a range, you can see the waves and ripples moving across the range. We try to shoot in the same condition for every shot. That rarely happens. We end up holding for the the condition that we have at the time. Usually not much but a half bullet hole here and a quarter bullet hole there. It is very rare that we shoot all 5 shots with the same point of aim. Bottom line here is that good shooting is good equipment, science, art, careful preparation and attention to detail. I think I will shut up now and attempt to practice what I am preadhing.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Each discipline has its own nightmares that it creates. The wind, mirage, topographical contours of the range and rotation of the earth have an affect on all. As I stated I have only competed at 500 yards, my hope is to try 1000 yards.

In F-Class, we cannot fire rounds as fast as our ability allows. There is a mandatory 7 second delay required with the electronic targeting systems (Shotmarkers) and even longer when manually scoring with someone working the pits. Probably 20-30 seconds on a good day. The conditions can change dramatically in that short period of time. But we have 20 minutes to fire 20 scoring rounds which for F-Class is a long time. It also allows us try and find more favorable conditions for each shot, time permitting.

Still it is a lot of fun, sometimes frustrating, but I enjoy it.

I have never shot BR, but I think that your discipline is probably less forgiving about equipment than F-Class TR. Yes, good equipment is essential in both, but when I started I was able to at least compete, sometimes surprisingly against some very well done rifles. As my equipment improved so did my scores. But I think that good glass and a barrel seems to make the biggest difference. Just my opinion.

My point to the OP, was that if he want to get into competition, then he should. I know that I could have spent a lot of money on my equipment up front and would have probably made a lot of expensive mistakes without having some point of reference from the firing line. The equipment must not only be accurate and precise, but it must also fit the shooter, especially when it comes to the rest, stock and even the glass. It is not unrealistic for a competitive rifle and glass in the F-Class Open to run $10K plus and that does not include the rest or bag which can easily add up to thousands more. Knowing what fits you and works for you is important. The smith and stock builder then can create the perfect rifle, but they need a starting point.

I am sure there are different views on this. Many start off with used rifle from another competitor. Seems like the guys that are national competitors are building at least one if not several rifles per year. Sometimes they will sell it after only a few matches. Maybe they just did not shoot as well as they they thought they would or maybe it just didn't fit them, or they just like building rifles. Bottom line, they are lucky to get material cost back out of them.

Just my observations.

 

[pontiac428]

LR competition does not need to be expensive. It's not all doctors and lawyers who win matches. I did put big money into the proper highpower setup, but that's a lot of kit that adds up. But for F-class, I chuckle when the guys see me pull out a sub-$1000 scope. They don't have an easy time just because I shoot with Vortex or SWFA glass against their NightForce big-cheddar scopes. Also, most of us own lathes, so blueprinting actions is free, fitting barrels and chambering is free, reamers are a couple hundred, and a top-tier match finished and countoured Krieger or Pac-Nor is only $350. You don't need to ship your action to some other schmoe to build a rifle that shoots under .20 minutes. They're simple to build. You just need to take your time and develop good loads and practice in the wind. It's not hard to find the x-ring, it's just hard to stay on it shot after shot- which speaks more for experience than cash flow. Expensive cars don't make fast drivers, dedication and practice get you there first.

 

[Jake P]

But for F-class, I chuckle when the guys see me pull out a sub-$1000 scope. They don't have an easy time just because I shoot with Vortex or SWFA glass against their NightForce big-cheddar scopes.

At least on the topic of glass I can weigh in with a few thoughts.

I have been for many years very much into photography, and have used some nice glass from companies like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Panasonic/Lumix and Olympus.

The glass that is in most of the high end scopes such as Swarovski, NightForce and others are at best optically on par with the high end lenses of the photography world. Taking a photo demands much more of the optics than viewing through the optic in real time. I’ve noticed things like chromatic aberrations and softness at the edges with the finest of scopes that would be readily apparent in a photograph, but invisible to most shooters in real time. It’s only because of my photography background that I can recognize these shortcomings in the high end scopes.

My point is this. So long as a scope is good in regards to it’s light transmitting ability, what is more important to the shooter is that the scope can maintain a point of impact consistency through repeated abuse and harsh environments. That’s what sets a scope like a MilSpec NightForce apart from others. They are literally cemented internally into place to be able to withstand abuse. That’s why a NigthForce Milspec is a 10 year combat guaranteed optic, and cannot be altered again internally. Is it optically superior to the finest Swarovski? Nope, but it’s way tougher.

So a scope is just an alignment device, and so long as it can maintain it’s point of impact, like a mill or a lathe can maintain it’s cutting reference point, it is doing it’s job. How pretty the picture is through the optic is irrelevant to the primary objective so long as the picture is sufficient to discern the target.

This is why any well made optic is sufficient in the overall context.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Couldn't agree more on the two posts above. I shoot with a Vortex Golden Eagle which can be had brand new for $1200 TYD if you shop, used for about $1100 TYD, slightly over the $1k mark but an exceptional scope for the money at a fraction of the NF Competition model which is their equivalent. I have a hard time seeing the difference between it and NF to be honest. That statement will stir some arguments on the firing line. The Vortex was not as readily accepted a couple of years ago. But we are seen in the equipment list of the winners more and more.

As for chambering your own barrels, a good many of the national champions, at least 95% of the ones I know from F-Class do their own and have their own customer reamers. There are five points on a reamer that are generally customized by shooters, the rest are rarely changed from the SAAMI case specs.

200 Line Case Diameter
Shoulder Diameter
Neck Angle
Neck Diameter
Lead or Freebore

It is also common for the resizing dies to be reamed by a custom die to ensure the case is matched to the chamber.

 

[xr650rRider]

At least on the topic of glass I can weigh in with a few thoughts.

This is why any well made optic is sufficient in the overall context.

Not always the case. There was a study using a scope checker that several very well known high end scopes were moving after adjustment. The results were on AccurateShooter but I think Alex Wheeler took it down as it was getting into brand bashing and not what he intended for it to do. His point was test your equipment. These guy are shooting 1000 yard benchrest and a scope that continues to drift due to recoil next to you or recoil from the rifle, is not something you want to think about. Nightforce was made aware of the issue but said there wasn't a problem, then was a lot of Nightforce Competition scopes for sale.

Just to be clear, it wasn't just Nightforce that had the problem. Older Nightforce Benchrest series seemed to hold their zero.

This website has the raw data from the test. This required 2 scopes to be mounted simultaneously and 1 scope was a known good frozen scope that could not change.
Scope tester data

 

[Earl]

I had a scope checker that was built by Charlie Hood. It mounts 2 scopes side by side and connects to the rifle with a single dovetail rail. It worked really great. The only problem is that you really didnt know which scope was bad. Unless you have a really bad scope, it is hard to know that you have one that is bad. There are lots of reasons for big groups, scopes are only one of them. I have a friend that is a "world class" shooter. He owns a shooting supply business so he can have anything that he wants. He has only 1 scope. He probably has 6 or 8 guns at any one time. All his gear rides in the back of his pickup except the scope. That indicates to me the importance of a scope that you have faith in.

 

[Papa Charlie]

They have talked a lot about those over on Accurate Shooter, it is my understanding that just like our test equipment, you need to have one scope that has been locked so that the reticle cannot move. They were sending scopes out to be modified for this purpose. Then you could be assured that the point of aim will not move and provide accurate measurement of the subject scopes movement.

Never used one, so this is from reading the threads on the subject.