Auto Woes

[middle.road]

A few weeks ago, my Dodge Grand Caravan started becoming finicky about starting. The problem seems to be the ignition switch. The scuttlebutt is that the dealer repair will be over $1K. I am able to start it by jiggling the key fob while tuning between the off and start positions but it is disconcerting in that with cold weather approaching, I could be left stranded with no way to start the car. Older versions used a mechanical switch with a printed circuit used for the contacts. The contact surface would become worn , dirty, or corroded causing the failure. It appears that the newer style, used in my vehicle, has no contacts and may be using Hall effect switches instead.

To add to the issue, removal of the ignition switch, known as a WIN or wireless ignition node, requires removal of the entire dash to gain access to the mounting screws, no doubt the reason for the high repair cost. Several You Tubers have posted videos of how it can be done with a partial loosening of the dash which looks feasible.

To further complicate matters, you can't buy a replacement module as the module has to be programmed to the key fobs, aka FOBIK's, and the to the on board computer by a MOPAR dealer. There are repair services offered where you send your module and key fobs and for $150 to $300, they will repair the module and return it plug and play. The issue is the vehicle is disable for about two weeks while this takes place and if you are wrong about the diagnosis and it lies elsewhere, you are out a minimum of over $100 plus the wait time and could still have to pay a visit to the dealer. AARGH

is the switch situ fixed?
Here's what I did on Honey's old Seville a few years ago. It may or may not match up with your problem.
On the Seville the would activate to the 'ON' position but not start the poor old beast. Switch is in the dash, not on the column, & it's coded.
We made a trip to PaP for me to test my mad mechanic skills on a donor. Did not go well.
Very difficult to replace.
Came home, after picking up a stater button/switch at AZ, and I sorta hot wired it.
Put the switch under the seat. It's not convenient but it got me around have to replace the dash switch on it.
So if yours will at least work in the on position it might be a solution.

 

[RJSakowski]

is the switch situ fixed?
Here's what I did on Honey's old Seville a few years ago. It may or may not match up with your problem.
On the Seville the would activate to the 'ON' position but not start the poor old beast. Switch is in the dash, not on the column, & it's coded.
We made a trip to PaP for me to test my mad mechanic skills on a donor. Did not go well.
Very difficult to replace.
Came home, after picking up a stater button/switch at AZ, and I sorta hot wired it.
Put the switch under the seat. It's not convenient but it got me around have to replace the dash switch on it.
So if yours will at least work in the on position it might be a solution.

Thanks for the reply and the suggestion Dan.

It appears that the problem is related to cold weather. It first appeared when the temperature dropped and last week, when we had overnight temps in the sixties again, it started every time. The next day, when the overnight was in the thirties, it took several tries to start. Once it starts, it seems to start on every subsequent try. The are several repair services available where you can send the WIN module in and the price is reasonable.

I had thought about hot wiring but I looked under the hood and can't even see the starter. I watched a YouTube video on replacing the starter and it appears that I have to pull the engine mount to even see it. I'll have to go down under to see if I can trace the wiring back to the topside. It would be good for a backup solution.

Back when I was driving GM products, I would buy the GM service manual for the vehicle. I used to have a subscription to a service called All Data when I switched to Mopar but the subscription is now $200/month.

 

[middle.road]

Thanks for the reply and the suggestion Dan.

It appears that the problem is related to cold weather. It first appeared when the temperature dropped and last week, when we had overnight temps in the sixties again, it started every time. The next day, when the overnight was in the thirties, it took several tries to start. Once it starts, it seems to start on every subsequent try. The are several repair services available where you can send the WIN module in and the price is reasonable.

I had thought about hot wiring but I looked under the hood and can't even see the starter. I watched a YouTube video on replacing the starter and it appears that I have to pull the engine mount to even see it. I'll have to go down under to see if I can trace the wiring back to the topside. It would be good for a backup solution.

Back when I was driving GM products, I would buy the GM service manual for the vehicle. I used to have a subscription to a service called All Data when I switched to Mopar but the subscription is now $200/month.

So now you have to relocate to someplace warm?

 

[RJSakowski]

So now you have to relocate to someplace warm? Actually, I found the solenoid relay and it is readily accessible. I ordered a couple of spare relays and I will pull the cover and wire a momentary contact switch across the contacts. If I can't start the vehicle in the normal way, I can pull the OEM relate and replace it with my modified relay for an emergency start. The relays will arrive tomorrow so I can test it out.

 

[matthewsx]

Sounds like a solid plan if it works. Trust you’ll be available when the workaround is needed?

Asking as a married man….

John

 

[RJSakowski]

Sounds like a solid plan if it works. Trust you’ll be available when the workaround is needed?

Asking as a married man….

John

The van is my ride and I have both keys. It is my boat towing, lumber hauling rig, My wife has only driven it a few times in the past eight years. She doesn't like driving it. However, if there ever was a need for her to use the workaround, she will be aware of the process.

Hopefully, I will have the problem properly solved shortly. I am just waiting for the end of the boat towing season to execute and that may have ended as of yesterday.

 

[middle.road]

THAT sounds a lot easier than what I did.

 

[RJSakowski]

THAT sounds a lot easier than what I did.

Manually activating the relay does turn the starter but the engine doesn't start so presumably, the ignition and/or the fuel injection aren't energized. his is with the ignition switch in the on position. There is an off chance that with the switch in the start position, those circuits are separate from the starter circuit and still functioning.

 

[RJSakowski]

An update on the situation.

I gave up on trying on bypass the ignition switch module. Energizing the starter with a manual switch while turning the key fob to the start position turns the starter but either the ignition or the injector circuits aren't energized. I attempted to pull the WIN module without pulling the dashboard and although I was able to unfasten it not without some trouble, I found that I couldn't actually remove it without completely removing the dashboard. Fortunately, I found a very good step by step procedure on YouTube (whatever you need to do, someone has done it before and made a YouTube video ).

I pulled the dash and removed the WIN module. Opening it up, I saw that instead of contacts, it used optical interrupters for switching. In my experience, if they fail, they stay failed but I did notice a small amount of debris which may have blocked one of the interrupters. There was no indication of any bad solder joints and I put the module together and reinstalled it. The car started on the first try.

However, in my experience dealing with intermittent problems, just when you think you have them fixed, they come back to bite you in the rear so my thought was to not reassemble the car until I had a large enough number of successful first time starts under my belt. The reasoning was if the failure to start on a first attempt happened about 30% of the time, the probability of a successful first time start after a "fix" was the probability of a pre-fix successful first time start (.7) in N successive attempts was .7exp N. For N = 20, that would be .0008 and the probability of actually fixed the problem would be .9992 or 99.92%. However, the weather gods decided to interfere. The 10 day outlook indicated a period of temperatures hovering in the single digits or teens so I decided to take a chance and reassemble the car. So far, I'm up to 33 consecutive successful first time starts which works out to a 99.99% probability that I corrected the problem.

Of course, Murphy doesn't believe in probabilities and now that I'm posting this, he will call up the fault out of spite so keep your fingers crossed that he doesn't see this.

 

[Janderso]

The van is my ride and I have both keys. It is my boat towing, lumber hauling rig

RJ,
It takes a real man to admit your minivan is your do it all ride.
I admire you for it.
A Ford long bed Super Crew is my dream vehicle. I've had one for over 25 years.

Reading through the comments it seems like you have plenty of advice. From, buy a Toyota next time, to fix it or sell the van etc.
Auto repair is expensive. What isn't these days.

As a long time Ford dealer employee I know why repairs are so expensive.
We have to grin and bear it and hopefully choose vehicles that will serve our needs dependably for many years to come.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles.
Good luck my friend.