Arc Wander and Magnetic Fields

Uglydog

Active User
H-M Supporter Gold Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
2,708
In a prior thread Rbeckett accurately stated "I use them carefully because they will cause arc wander if you attempt to weld to close to them."

Does anyone on this forum understand physics, electricity, and magnetic fields well enough understand the phenomena?
If so, can it be simplified so that I can understand it?
I'm really looking for the why.

Thank you for your patience with us curious types.

Thank you,
 
The simple answer is the electrons wants to take the shortest route from the electrode to the work clamp (ground clamp), or from the work clamp to the electrode and the magnets confuse the flow enough to cause the flow to be annoyed. Place the ground clamp closer to the weld zone and the magnetic clamp.
 
Last edited:
It's the same thing as how the old television sets worked. There was an electron gun shooting electrons from the back of the screen to the phosphor on front. On all four sides of the tube, there were magnets which were electronically controlled to deflect the beam of electrons causing them to hit the front of the screen in purposeful and predictable ways. When the electrons hit the phosphor, they released their energy and caused the phosphor to glow. By manipulating the magnetic filed, images could be presented.

The point being, when a flow of electrons is acted upon by magnetic forces, it alters their path (in the case of the old TVs, the method of altering was precise and predictable).

The formula is R = Mv/qB. Translated: Radius of deflection = Mass of Electron x Velocity of electron / Charge of electron x Magnetic Strength.

Does that scratch the itch?

EDIT: This is how mass spectrometers work. Every type of atom has characteristic numbers of electrons in the valence orbits; and thus, similar atoms will be acted upon by a fixed magnetic field in the same way. If a variety of atoms are introduced to a fixed mag field, atoms of a similar type will all be deflected to the same place and will release their engery upon impact. The apparatus has a target plate, subdivided into many areas -each area is the target for a specific type of atom. As energy is registered in the sectors, it is then known what type of atom is striking. This is precisely how Geiger counters work too. -Very old technology.

EDIT EDIT: And this is how super colliders detect all the particles that come flying apart when atoms are smashed together. At the point of impact, they setup a magnetic field and particles are forced to fly into target areas. They read the engery in the target areas and make estimates about what in the world is hitting in those spots.

Ray
 
And to expand on that, when you weld, you're passing electrical current through the work via the arc and that creates an electromagnetic field so... welding in a corner means the field is unpredictable, causing the arc to wander.
 
The difficulties with corner welding... Couple things going on and it depends if it's AC or DC. DC currents are only capable of establishing electric fields whereas AC currents produce both an electric and magnetic field (with a proportion of about 80% electric, with a quadrature sinusoidal collapse pattern). The self created magnetic field from AC welding is innumerably small and has no measurable effect on the electrons path. A fixed magnet such as a clamping magnet is hundreds of millions of times stronger than the self induced mag field.

Common to both AC and DC welding are two phenomenon. 1) Current always finds the shortest path of least resistance. 2) Sometimes it takes a moment for the current to find the shortest path (due to linear momentum). Suffice it to say, when the electrode is near two edges, the electrons are trying to figure-out which way to go and they bounce around a little. Also, shortest path does not necessarily mean shortest linear distance. If there is scale etc, even a more distant path might have less resistance so, the electrons decide to go that route instead. ADDENDUM: Heat effects resistance. As heat increases, so does electrical resistance (ask me and I'll tell you why)... On an area of a weld that is really, really hot, you might find the arc jumping to somewhere else even though the electrode is closer. This is because the localized resistance is so great, the current takes a longer path but of least resistance.

Ray

EDIT: If you've ever received a little electric shock, you're probably familiar with first a sensation throughout your body then finally, a sudden sting on one localized area such as your hand etc. There are two reasons for this. 1) Capacitive discharge: Your body has many free electrons and they all start to move around when the current enters your body. This is that overall tingling sensation. 2) They figured-out the shortest path and are now traveling enmasse through one area and it's burning the hell out of some cells in your body.

EDIT (again): Someone will probably take exception to DC currents only producing electric fields. There are two distinct cases. 1) DC current traveling in a wire can indeed produce a magnetic filed. 2) We're not talking about the case of #1. We're talking about the case when an open gap has non alternating voltages at the terminals. This is a very different case and is effectively a capacitor where either air or the electron plasma itself is the dialectric. In this case, there is, can only be, an electric field. If you want to know the proof, let me know but, you will need several years knowledge of advanced algebra, calculus and matrix(vector calculus) theory. -Which are the fundamentals of Maxwell's equations.
 
And to expand on that, when you weld, you're passing electrical current through the work via the arc and that creates an electromagnetic field so... welding in a corner means the field is unpredictable, causing the arc to wander.
Mike
I love that observation. Welding from the edge of the flange into the web of a column always causes this issue. It is one of those frustrating things the disruption of the weld puddle make me stay in the corner too long try to keep the puddle together which leads to a excess of liquid flux which causes more issues. To overcome this i try to weld from the middle of the web to the corner and out to the edge or the flange usually it works better, also that inside corner is a bear to clean as well. In the field bringing the ground cable right to the work is sometimes a big hassel but it is always a good place to start.

Ray, i love when theory meets field conditions, welding in the rain is a bummer

Tip 1. Lay out the electrodes on a piece of wood and pick them up with stinger instead of the the wet glove.

Tip 2. Sit on a wet beam to make weld and put a rod in with a wet glove and the shortest path for the electrons is through the jewel bag it will cure you of welding in the rain.

Bob
 
Last edited:
RayC,
Have you considered writing for AWS?
Your stuff makes sense!

Thank you,
 
What's AWS?

No need for me to write about it. It was already written by Georg Ohm, Alessandro Volta, James Maxwell, Michael Faraday, Heinrich Hertz and the other contemporaries of the era who figured-out what electricity is. Written by me is nothing more than a history lesson -and now you know why those electrical terms are capitalized -because they are abbreviations for a proper noun.

Ray


RayC,
Have you considered writing for AWS?
Your stuff makes sense!

Thank you,
 
I'm starting to get the idea that this RayC guy is kinda smart.:think1:
 
Someone will probably take exception to DC currents only producing electric fields. There are two distinct cases. 1) DC current traveling in a wire can indeed produce a magnetic filed. 2) We're not talking about the case of #1. We're talking about the case when an open gap has non alternating voltages at the terminals. This is a very different case and is effectively a capacitor where either air or the electron plasma itself is the dialectric. In this case, there is, can only be, an electric field. If you want to know the proof, let me know but, you will need several years knowledge of advanced algebra, calculus and matrix(vector calculus) theory. -Which are the fundamentals of Maxwell's equations.

I'm going to disagree with you on this part (and this part alone). A current produces a magnetic field, period. There's nothing in Maxwell about current in a wire being different from current in an arc (plasma). It's right there in the equation that has curl B (B is the magnetic field), and J (J is the current density). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations
 
Back
Top