Allen Bradley Reversing Starter Info. Needed

Like I mentioned above, that's what I originally thought of.


Well, I'm not an electrical engineer! But I can't believe with an old-style motor, I would be able to get the same low-end torque with a VFD as I would with the low-speed windings.

Now if I were to sell the 2-speed dual winding motor & get a newer-style inverter duty rated motor I could see where a VFD would be a good benefit.

Doug
Getting it clear in my head.
You have basically two windings, that are tapped, with 2.4 ohms between T1 and T2, and another 2.4 ohms between T2 and T3 ?
Similar for T11, T12, T13, except that now you have higher resistances. Also, it is a "dual winding" device"

I try to decode that, speculating that you have a 3-phase motor, with a choice of torques. e.g. Possibly one might be a delta connection, and the other a "star" or "wye" connection.

While it is important that you completely figure out the motor windings, know that @markba633csi is right about VFDs. A modern VFD can deliver energy to windings, even in old style induction motors, in ways able to deliver low speed torque, or rev higher than ever it might have on 60Hz.

My experience has been mostly with multi-pole servomotors and PWM switch mode drives, so I would not want to mislead you about available VFDs. I have bought one for simple speed control on a drill press, it "just works", but your application is much more demanding. As I understand it, the rotor in motors always "lags behind" the rotating field from powering the windings. This is known as "slip", and it increases with load. It is also necessary to induce currents in the rotor, to make it become a magnet.

Of course, one can have variants, such as those using powerful permanent magnets in the rotor, but let us stay with induction motors for now. A VFD switches the energy into the windings in bursts of pulses, phased for each winding. The pulses are going at a "carrier" frequency rate of some kHz. I used 12kHz, but this is usually configurable. The energy is determined by the pulse width ON/OFF ratio. The artificial 3-phase 120°, or 2-phase at 90° can apparently operate with massive amounts of slip.

We know that an induction motor with it's shaft loaded to the point of going slow, or near stall will not be producing much back emf, and so begins to look like a transformer with short-circuit secondary. This would be overload, and getting hot, so I am not completely sure how a VFD switching power handles this, but my direct experience with the drill press motor is that it seems to deliver big torque, even when turning slowly.

When I used permanent magnet AC motors on servo drives, they were required to hold the load stopped dead, using the motor as a "brake", and be able to crawl forward or reverse as needed. 3/4 ton of satellite tracking dish does this. Getting torque on, then let go brakes, and have control in milliseconds was what I was into. The load on the motor can flip this way or that, depending where pointing, and even with gearbox, the motors would sometimes be stopped, yet still delivering full torque from the rotating field.

I think, with VFDs, on induction motors, you may need some rotation minimum. Do figure out your motor, and read everything about a VFD you might want to get, but I think losing the old interlocked contactors, and having all the control, settable overload safety torque and current limits, speed control, reversing, and easy interface available from VFDs is the way to go.
 
Getting it clear in my head.
You have basically two windings, that are tapped, with 2.4 ohms between T1 and T2, and another 2.4 ohms between T2 and T3 ?
Similar for T11, T12, T13, except that now you have higher resistances.
The 2.4 ohms is between (T1 T2 T3) and the 3.4 ohms is between (T11 T12 T13)

Also, it is a "dual winding" device"
Yeah, it's basically like having a 1HP. and a 2HP. motor in the same housing.

Doug
 
The 2.4 ohms is between (T1 T2 T3) and the 3.4 ohms is between (T11 T12 T13)
Hi Doug
Yes - I did get what you posted. What I was after was to be very clear about exactly what measurement that means.
T1 to T2
Then T2 to T3
Finally T1 to T3
If they all are equal, we have symmetry, and possibly a delta winding.
I would take a guess that the 1HP connection uses T11, T12, T13

In motors, the running currents are not determined by the DC resistances. Its an AC device, so the current is determined by the impedance of the winding, which is a function of coil self-inductance, mutual inductance affected by the rotor, and the load.

My best guess is that the higher resistance windings betrays that it is likely two coils in series from the terminals to the star point of the wye connection. Normally, the power from the delta connection = √3 x the power from the star connection, if there were only one set of 3 windings being re-configured. When you have two complete windings sets, the power can be whatever the designer was going for.

This also assumes one has access to both ends of all windings, which might not be the case if the star (or delta) points were already forcibly connected within the motor. Regardless the connection options, there is no need to be applying AC mains to them via contactors, and it looks like they need three phase anyway. The easiest way to drive 3-phase motors, especially if you start with a 220V or 230V AC single phase, is to use a VFD. All the additional control, torque, and safety benefits are just additional icing on the cake
 
An induction motor can do zero speed holding, but it requires a rotor position sensor and the rotor gets hot FAST. Permanent magnet AC motors (also known as brushless DC motors) eliminate the squirrel cage losses; a big perk at low speeds and an efficiency boost.
Synchronous reluctance motors are sorta in between. Rotor is cheaper, can do zero speed holding without rotor losses, losses in between, lower power density.

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk
 
Yes - I did get what you posted. What I was after was to be very clear about exactly what measurement that means.
T1 to T2
Then T2 to T3
Finally T1 to T3
If they all are equal, we have symmetry, and possibly a delta winding.
I would take a guess that the 1HP connection uses T11, T12, T13
Yeah, the ohm measurement was the same on all combinations of T1 T2 T3, And the same was the case with T11 T12 T13.
There was no continuity of any kind in-between the two sets of three wires.

To make matters even more confusing with this motor. there was no name plate or wiring diagram on it.
I did the tests mentioned above per information I found HERE & from a friend of mine that's a retired electrical line man.

This is how I came up with the determination that it was a two-speed dual-winding motor. The previous owner had told me that it was 240V 3PH, but without any motor name plate or wiring diagram I wasn't 100% sure. I took the motor to a local motor shop that tested it out & verified that it was a 240V 3PH dual winding motor. I also had the motor shop clean it up & install new sealed bearings.

I still don't know 100% for sure what the actual HP ratings are, but the tech at the motor shop told me that based on the frame & shaft size that it's probably a 1HP. ~ 2HP.

Doug
 
I did the tests mentioned above per information I found HERE & from a friend of mine that's a retired electrical line man.

I still don't know 100% for sure what the actual HP ratings are, but the tech at the motor shop told me that based on the frame & shaft size that it's probably a 1HP. ~ 2HP.
The PDF you searched out is a most excellent resource. It is one of the most complete descriptions of connections I have seen, and maybe deserves to be stashed in this site as reference material. The frame size, and shaft size are reasonable ways to estimate the power.

If you have 3-phase, then you are set to go. If you have the normal 120V-0-120V, giving you an available 240V single phase, then you make your own 3-phase either with a rotary converter, or a VFD. If it is a VFD chosen, then the most voltage it can make for a switched DC bus from 240V is about 339, more likely about 333V in practice. Changing the winding connections from star to delta would then better suit the lower voltage. It uses the lower voltage, but higher current to get back the power. For example, a 1HP motor offered the lower voltage would deliver about 64% power. Changing the winding then puts it back up again to 1.10HP

The difference is always the square root of three. The peak value of an AC sinewave is the RMS voltage that you measure x square root of two

I think you are in a good place, and you have done good things for your motor. It's great that you have given it some good TLC with the bearings set.
 
The frame size, and shaft size are reasonable ways to estimate the power.
I've checked several of the old brochures of South Bend lathes & the largest factory motor they offered was a 1HP.~2HP. model.
That motor was offered with the 16" turret lathe & it had a 1" dia. shaft!
My motor (13" lathe) has a 1-1/8" shaft, so I assume it's not original?

If you have the normal 120V-0-120V, giving you an available 240V single phase, then you make your own 3-phase with a rotary converter
Yeah, that's what I have!
I built my RPC several years ago based on plans I got from a member of Popular Machinist.
It uses a 5HP. idler but the wiring & controls are set-up to handle 40A amps. I have it hard wired to a 40A breaker, so I should be fine with power requirements.
IMG_7377.JPGIMG_7385.JPG
It's great that you have given it some good TLC with the bearings set.
Yeah, it's probably a good thing I had the motor shop clean it up & install the new bearings.
They use some type of dry-ice cleaning machine & according to the guy at the motor shop this motor was pretty well loaded with gunk on the inside.

Doug
 
The 520's I've seen seem to be grossly over-priced
After searching around on e-bay some more I managed to find an AB 520 two speed starter at a fair price, I also picked up a pair of AB 505 reversing starters for a good price. The starters arrived a few days ago along with an electrical enclosure & pushbutton control panel I also got on e-bay.
IMG_9223.JPGIMG_9201.JPG
Now I just need to figure out how I want to wire this all up. :xmaslights:

I found some wiring diagrams for both the two-speed starter & the reversing starter, but I haven't seen anything yet that shows them wired together!

Doug
 
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