80% Lower Legal Question

[wrat]

That was a little harsh. Jake was a professional pilot for his entire career, as I was. Both of us have extensive experience and knowledge of how regulations work since we were involved in the MOST regulated industry on the planet, outside of nuclear.

Wasn't meant to be harsh. Wasn't even meant to be stern. Just trying to be matter-of-fact.
After all, Jake was here for over 7 hours before mentioning he was a pilot - that might be a new record.

And you, and he, apparently don't really understand at all.
You see, being pilots, you participate in a well-regulated industry, yes. And that means everything is spelled out. Everything. The configuration of the plane. The rules of becoming a pilot - and staying a pilot. Every action, reaction, routine, emergency, and contingency is all spelled out, letter perfect. Maintenance, replacement parts, structural loading, maneuvers, speeds, and even which cubic foot of air you can fly in. As they say, the regs are written in blood. All published for the whole world to see if they take such a notion.

In fact, I don't see much virtue in such understanding when there's so little wiggle room.

OTOH, the ATF has a long and checkered past of arbitrary and capricious decision making. They routinely contradict themselves; countermand their own orders; and just pull stuff out of thin air without warning. How long could you fly an aircraft built under such conditions? Your regs keep you snug and secure in a predictable world. Your regs promote airman safety and preserve property. Seen any of that from the ATF?

When the FAA deviates even so much as a traffic pattern, a NOTAM is published. If there's questionable hardware, ADs are published. There's even a "comment period" for any discussion that might affect pilots, owners, operators, builders, or factories. You know how often the ATF does such things? Or anything like it? Or sticks with it when they do?

And what happens when you kill someone? Do you get promoted?

Comparing the mentality required to deal with the FAA as opposed to the ATF is apples and pinecones. Now I'm still not being harsh, but let's review. A guy with your instincts for rules should have noticed right off that there's no public certainty, which tells you what? There's no rules except what they say at any given time. Yet you failed to pick up on it. Now why would I be blamed for that?

There's an old bromide about this: you don't smack the bear. You don't wrestle the bear. You don't taunt the bear. You don't shout at the bear. You don't even get the bear's attention. Because even if you win, you end up smelling like bear. Anyone with alphabet agency experience knows precisely what that means.

Most people that get the attention of the ATF end up wishing they did not.
It's perfectly legal to build your own gun - been decided many times - so i tend to leave them out of it every chance I get.

 

[Firebrick43]

That was a little harsh. Jake was a professional pilot for his entire career, as I was. Both of us have extensive experience and knowledge of how regulations work since we were involved in the MOST regulated industry on the planet, outside of nuclear.

Yes but FAA regs are a lot more cut and dry. Many BATF regs are less cut and dry, vaguely written, interpretations by the officials change with the flavor of whos in office, ect, ect.

 

[Ulma Doctor]

even here in Californistan, it is legal to build an 80% unit
it can't be transferred, sold, or otherwise gifted
it must be registered upon completion within 15 days

if the firing pin is not present, the firearm is not complete

there are no laws keeping a man from sharing ideas on how to machine inanimate objects
he can even use your tools

by your rights,
do not film the procedure
do not tell others of your experience

 

[Jake P]

do not tell others of your experience

The only true secret is the one that only one person knows.

 

[ErichKeane]

As someone with NFA/gun experience, AND FAA experience (albeit as a PP-ASEL), the aviation rules are much more cut and dried.

The problem with the ATF/gun stuff: Most of the laws are intentionally written vaguely, or even to give the ATF the right to interpret them at will. Stuff you do will be legal one day, and you'll have a letter in hand from an ATF administrator saying so. The next day, it was all illegal, it was ALWAYS illegal, and now you're breaking the law for possessing it.

The freedom the ATF has to just re-interpret the rules at any one point make just about every single definition in firearms nonsense, entire businesses end up just drying up overnight, and all their customers turned into felons-in-wait thanks to this crap.

 

[Ulma Doctor]

if you get a visit from the ATF, usually it has nothing to do with Alcohol or Tobacco

 

[Karl_T]

To summarize, take bill Clinton's advice, "don't ask, don't tell"

 

[Janderso]

Thanks for all the input folks!

I’ve informed the young man that it would be best if he and his father got themselves a router and a jig and have at it themselves.

This is not worth all the potential pitfalls.

It’s an unfortunate state of affairs (on so many levels) to say the least.

As I become more responsible in my years I am thinking about who says what to whom down the road.
If someone is shooting said lower and someone asks, say, that looks great. Who finished the lower?
I know we would do things for our buddies but I would draw the line and be careful on this subject.
Just 2 cents worth.

I have a CCW permit and have had for decades. The classes scare the heck out of me. Not the shooting, the civil suits that follow a shooting.
We also learn about all the new laws every two years.

 

[Janderso]

As someone with NFA/gun experience, AND FAA experience (albeit as a PP-ASEL), the aviation rules are much more cut and dried.

The problem with the ATF/gun stuff: Most of the laws are intentionally written vaguely, or even to give the ATF the right to interpret them at will. Stuff you do will be legal one day, and you'll have a letter in hand from an ATF administrator saying so. The next day, it was all illegal, it was ALWAYS illegal, and now you're breaking the law for possessing it.

The freedom the ATF has to just re-interpret the rules at any one point make just about every single definition in firearms nonsense, entire businesses end up just drying up overnight, and all their customers turned into felons-in-wait thanks to this crap.

Well said Erich.

 

[Cadillac]

Here in Illinois you cannot machine a lower for someone else. Illegal
You can show them how to do it themselves. They have to turn the dials.
You can sell maybe one after completed down the road and serialized taking the proper steps, but anymore would probably throw up a flag.
Disclaimer Not a lawyer!