2016 POTD Thread Archive

Ken, the pump that originally came with that tank, which I have rebuilt, is a Kellog-American 2 stage. I'm putting a more modern 5hp 3 phase motor I had on hand on it. I have the original motor also, and a 10 that I could put on it, but I don't need that much air. I'm a one man shop the majority of the time.

I will be building a belt guard for this thing. I have curious neighbor kids, and cats who love warm places. I'd hate to have to clean up the mess a kid would leave. Planning a chain link enclosure and metal roof over the pad it will sit on. Pad is sitting waiting. Still need to run the circuit, but I think I have all the materials on hand.
 
OK, guys. I need an education here. I do understand that pressurizing a tank with water is much safer than pressurizing with air. If the tank decides to fail, the energy in the compressed water is dissipated instantly. No flying shrapnel, like you'd get with compressed air. And you can go to a water pressure that's some safety factor above the pressure you plan to use in air service. So far, so good.

But I thought I'd read somewhere that when commercial compressed gas outfits hydro test their cylinders, the cylinder is immersed in water, so that the change in volume (related to the strength of the cylinder walls) can be measured during the test. I assume this is meant to check for weakness and/or incipient failure.

Is immersion not necessary for "low" pressure tanks (say, under 200 PSI, as opposed to the ~2000 PSI of a compressed gas cylinder)? Or is the non-immersion test just a "rough and ready" guide or "first approximation"? I admit I sometimes get paranoid about safety, so I'd sincerely appreciate some insight here. Thanks!
 
What you're referring to is a water jacket test, and is usually used only on smaller pressure vessels.

"Small pressure vessels are normally tested using a water jacket test. The vessel is visually examined for defects and then placed in a container filled with water, and in which the change in volume of the vessel can be measured, usually by monitoring the water level in a calibrated tube. The vessel is then pressurized for a specified period, usually 30 or more seconds, and if specified, the expansion will be measured by reading off the amount of liquid that has been forced into the measuring tube by the volume increase of the pressurized vessel. The vessel is then depressurized, and the permanent volume increase due to plastic deformation while under pressure is measured by comparing the final volume in the measuring tube with the volume before pressurization. A leak will give a similar result to permanent set, but will be detectable by holding the volume in the pressurized vessel by closing the inlet valve for a period before depressurizing, as the pressure will drop steadily during this period if there is a leak. In most cases a permanent set that exceeds the specified maximum will indicate failure. A leak may also be a failure criterion, but it may be that the leak is due to poor sealing of the test equipment"

Wiki quote ^^^

Larger vessels are tested hydro-statically pretty much as Jake is doing.
 
Larger vessels are tested hydro-statically pretty much as Jake is doing.

I could use a bit of education too. So, when the vessel is hydro-statically tested, is it filled with water and then pressurized with air ?

Ted
 
Ted, the idea is to use air only when there is no other way. And another reason is for the entire scope of pressure vessel testing, no one is likely to have air at the pressures needed. Of course, there are ASME, ASTM, etc, standards for all types of testing, and they specify the safety margin. Some specifications require testing at 150% of the rated working pressure, sometimes more, sometimes less, but rarely less. The least I can remember seeing is 146%. Why 146% I don't know, but that is what the spec was. It all depends on the purpose of the vessel. Think about all the differences in applications. It might be a fuel tank on your car.....low pressure and relatively low risk. So no need to build a 3000 psig vessel, but it still needs to be leak tested. On the other hand, look at the high pressure gases used in welding. Nitrogen and oxygen tanks often see 2500 psig. And that high of pressure can be dangerous, should there be a failure. Or if the contents are toxic, radioactive, etc, a whole new world of risk assessment opens up. And naturally, there are specifications governing each application.

But I an getting away from you question. Liquids are generally thought of as non-compressible, and any energy that is used to pressure up a vessel under test quickly dissipates should there be a catastrophic failure. In fact, it's rather unimpressive to watch. So, the idea is to fill up the vessel as much as possible with a liquid with water being most common because it is cheap and relatively harmless. There are a few exceptions with vessels where water cannot be used as they cannot be satisfactorily dried after the test. Other liquids are chosen when needed. When the vessel is as full as possible (no airspace is desired) then the system used to pressure the vessel is plumbed in. In the JPFab method, he uses a Porta-Power hydraulic hand pump (they also make powered systems, quite useful in their own right), and after topping off all possible remaining airspace and hoses, fittings, etc. with oil, he will pump it up just like extending the hydraulic cylinder normally attached to the pump. In theory, with zero air, all the pressure is contained in a closed system. In practice, it's just about impossible to get all the air out, so there is actually a small amount of air at system pressure. But hopefully, the energy contained in such a small volume is not enough to do any damage should there be a failure. Just a little squirt of oil or water. The expansion rate of air is a known factor, but depends on a few variables that are inconsequential for this discussion. That's part of how much force is available in a given volume of air at a given temperature, and how much force that could potentially make some fragment of a tank fly at you. With fluids, the pressure dissipates virtually instantly, so nothing much is going to come flying off, compared to air. The pressure achievable with hydraulics is quite high, quite cheap, and quite efficient, making it a good means of obtaining test pressure. On the other hand, air or generally any other gases pose problems when being compressed to the extent needed to adequately carry out tests. And the danger factor is immense compared to liquids. It isn't practical to test large vessels with gases anyway. Not all testing is about rupture/failure also. Some are simply leak tests, more like the rightful concern with the gasoline tank on our cars and trucks. I don't need my fuel tank to hold up under 10,000 psig. But I don't want a single drop to leak out.

There's much more to this than I have covered, but this is a PotD thread, so I'll stop rambling.
 
If you have ever seen some gas canister that has exploded with just 100 to 150 PSI you tend to never want to see it again. Never mind seeing a 3000 PSI 80 tank explode in the back of a car. the fact that the water can achieve the higher pressure with out he explosive release, is a great thing. (but can still be dangerous. )
 
Tony,
Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. Mostly, I was curious as to how the pressure of the water was increased to the test pressures. Hydraulic pumping makes perfect sense.
Thanks again
Ted
 
If a person had a surplus PortaPower, they could use it exclusively for this, provided they wanted to clean and oil it every time. Or, a dedicated hydraulic/water transfer cylinder could be build out of stainless and left in continuous duty. OR two cylinders nose to nose with only one needing to be stainless.....the options are open. If you needed ultra high pressures, a large and small cylinder set could be mated up. etc etc etc
 
Tony -Thanks so VERY much for all your efforts at clarification and the wonderfully detailed explanation! An if nothing else, I feel a lot more confident that you, Jake and others are doing things with utmost safety in mind. LOVE this forum!
 
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