1 ton arbor press for initial tool molding

[leonardo-albertovich]

Right on @francist, that was exactly my thinking, it will be sub optimal and it may fail but I'll still have an arbor press and I'm sure I'll find a way to fit some broaching in my process when I have it available =)

I hadn't heard of that book @brino but it sounds really interesting so I'll grab a copy asap, thanks!

 

[ericc]

An arbor press is a little weak for this application. Unless you have another application, I would skip to a more suitable tool. I would recommend a flypress. It looks like an arbor press but is completely different. The key is in the inertia of the weights coupled to the screw. The only application I have heard of for an arbor press in forging is to stamp with a touchmark. The press is actuated and the 1 ton only serves to hold the punch against the piece to be marked. There is not nearly enough force to do anything. Then the top of the ram is hit with a hammer. This provides the force to make the mark. A MAPP torch is also marginal for heating steel. That is not really the appropriate use for this tool. You may have some luck concentrating the heat with a cove made from pieces of insulating firebrick.

 

[leonardo-albertovich]

@OCJohn I liked those, particularly the black bear one, if you pay attention at minute 15 (or if you've ever done this) you can see why I (under?) estimated the effort / tonnage required to do some light forming

@ericc That's unfortunate, I can't get a flypress because I do this part of the process in my apartment and I can't lug that thing around (for the rest of the stuff I work in a small storage unit we have in the basement of the building which doesn't have good ventilation or power outlets and has a bunch of flamable stuff). As for the MAPP torch I'm surprised because I was easily able to get my pieces to critical temperature without even concentrating the heat (I was trying to keep the annealing and hardening quite minimalistic because I don't want to incur in risks and I'll perform the tempering in a grill using the loser method).

I guess I'll see if the MAPP torch falls short when I get a coil spring or a similarly beefier chunk of metal.

 

[francist]

Well I could resist giving it a try….

1/4” mild steel rod, heated to full orange with a run-of-the-mill propane only torch without the benefit of curbs. One pull with the rod spanning one of the gaps in the daisy wheel. It’s not smithing by any stretch, but that’s a pretty tight offset that would otherwise be tough to do. I’d say there’s potential

 

[C-Bag]

@piper184 I have done some proper backsmithing in the past, however, at the moment I'm limited to an apartment where I can't bang my pieces for many reasons (not only the noise)

@whitmore I agree with you in terms of material, however, in this case what I'm looking for is to experiment with what I have at my disposal and what's easy to get in the hardware store (mostly for fun) and since I'm confined to an apartment I don't have a circular or table saw so I don't have any worn out blades.

@OCJohn I assumed I would be able to do this minimal forming with an arbor press because a long time ago when I lived in a place where I could do some proper blacksmithing I used anvil tooling but more importantly I saw the same concept applied in power hammers.

I think you might be right about using a beefier press because I saw someone struggle to cold form a coin in a 1 ton press (to the point where they bent the handle).

Thanks a lot for the ideas folks.

Welcome to H-M.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of goals and parameters. I can see why you are thinking arbor press but there are so many details outside my direct experience. The metal forming I do with my 2tn arbor press is sheet steel and my torch is oxy-acetylene and so much hotter. It will be interesting to me what you can come up with especially since you are working out of an apartment. My impression is you are in a technical field and are looking for something totally different to do on your off times. I have several friends who are computer techs that do woodworking on the weekends.

While I love my old 2tn arbor press and use it for all kinds of things, a 1tn wouldn’t seem to be strong enough. The 2tn with larger throat and stroke is pretty much minimum as I’m always needing more. My next size up is an antique 22tn H frame screw press and even it has its limits. My assortment of big hammers and specialized body hammers are indispensable for the sheetmetal forming I do. I also have a set of dapping blocks like Brino mentioned and have been wanting to make adapters to mount them to the arbor press but use them mostly with a shot bag or a hockey puck for backing.

 

[brino]

One other thought is an upgraded heat source.
I built a propane burner based on plans here:
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html

I use that propane powered burner to do some basic smithing and to melt aluminum usually with just a pile of fire bricks to contain heat.
It is not much bigger than a propane/mapp set-up, but will be much hotter and cheaper in the long run.

Be sure to have adequate ventilation in your work area, this thing does consume the oxygen and put off bad gases.

That website mentioned above seems update since I was last there, he now has even more info on Mapp gas and forced air burners.
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/
Someday I want to build a waste-oil burner to get the temperatures even higher.

Brian

 

[leonardo-albertovich]

@C-Bag Exactly, I spent most of my life doing crude fabrication (I'm sure I'm the worst welder in the continent) and woodworking but it was always something I did for pleasure. Professionally I have focused on low level programming and information security so there's a stark contrast (which would diminish getting into precision work obviously) in the dynamics of those activities which I really appreciate.

Going back to blacksmithing for a reference point, there's also the fact there are many operations (such as twisting) that are performed with minimal to no mechanical advantage (I know, there's a difference between twisting and shaping) which is why I felt the odds were in my favor.

@brino To be honest, even a really "simple" commercial propane forge that would fit my environment (ie. a one or two burner vevor) would be dirt cheap (we're talking in the 100 to 150 euro range IIRC) so if that was the case I would most certainly get one to be able to focus on what matters (tool making) rather than adding another side project but the thing is I've evaluated that option even before taking the chance on the MAPP torch and decided against it because it wouldn't really fit my current constraints and after having experimented with the torch (full heat treatment cycle) I can say that for the materials and dimentions I'm currently working with it seems to be adequate. I might make a smallish fire brick enclosure to slightly improve the process but I still have to consider the drawbacks of adding one more component to the system.

Maybe one additional point to clarify would be that I'm totally fine with being limited to work on smaller parts for the moment because there's a really wide variety of detail tooling for woodworking and carving that I could add to my stash.

I will definitly report my results once I get and set up the press (and tooling) but I think it'll take me about a month at least.

Once again thanks everyone, I really appreciate the engagement.

 

[RJSakowski]

For woodworking tools, you will want to use high carbon steel. High carbon steel should be worked at a red or orange heat to avoid stress cracks. Definitely not cold working. You should also plan on heat treating.

Rather than propane, I would suggest and induction heater. They are quite reasonable for small items and can attain the required temperatures. You would nee a proper power source and some means of circulating water through the induction coils but this isn't beyond the capability of an apartment workshop. The advantage is no fumes, relatively low danger of a fire, and faster heating. Here is an example.

20A 1000W ZVS Tesla Low Voltage Induction Heating Board Flyback Driver Heater | eBay

Maximum current 20A, maximum power 1000W. and then access the induction heating circuit. uniform heating fast, very convenient. 3, The circuit board using double-sided fiberglass board, mainly copper traces are used to widen.

www.ebay.com

 

[OCJohn]

@RJSakowski do you have one of those? I’ve always kinda wanted one but could not justify the cost. That price seems too good to be true, but definitely tickling my trigger finger.

 

[RJSakowski]

@RJSakowski do you have one of those? I’ve always kinda wanted one but could not justify the cost. That price seems too good to be true, but definitely tickling my trigger finger.

I do or rather, I did. It was rated at 1000 watts @ 50 volts. My power supply was only capable of providing 25 volts and so was only outputting around 250 watts but it was enough to heat 1/2" iron bars to a red heat. I accidentally shorted out the output to the induction coil and took out the MOSFET driver transistors. I haven't replaced them yet.

The ultimate temperature depends on the size of the object heated, the power input to the induction heater, and radiative cooling. Increasing the power or surrounding with an insulating sleeve would conceivably raise the ultimate temperature to near welding temperatures.