Shop Fox-Just another China brand or?

Another point about Quality Control in these factories.

These factories make tools branded for many different companies. The parts are often made in smaller sub factories, or more correctly huts where a batch of a single component is made, then shipped to an assembly factory.

The parts are supposed to be checked for accuracy before the tools get assembled.

My boss was in Taiwan one time and witnessed this. A batch of drill presses was being made for a major department store chain, and my boss arrived just as they started change over, to a different brand, Delta. This company had about a dozen engineers that lived in Taiwan and oversaw the Quality Control. They went through the different parts checking them for accuracy and on a few occasions they found parts that were flawed or undersized enough that they were beyond the + specs that were stated. So these parts were wheeled off the assembly line and a new batch brought in. These parts were checked and yup, they were within tolerance, so the assembly run was started.

When the assembly run for Delta was finished, the parts that had previously been wheeled off the line, magically re-appeared on the line and the next clients batch was started.

Just because the parts were rejected by one company as not withon tolerance, does not mean that they will be destroyed, just that they will be used for other clients that do not have the Quality Control checks in place or for those clients that wanted a "cheaper" price.

Walter
 
Let me clarify. On this forum, we don't care what machine you own. That policy was created by me, and it has remained the same - always.
Good work is produced on ALL types of lathes. You know the saying, "a poor worker blames the tools". I believe it.
When I see the fabulous work, and the skill behind it, that we have on here, the machine becomes less significant. It's the SKILL that matters.
No one has ever been banned or complimented for the machine they own on here. It's always the work that counts.

Not only is there no "sensitivity", but I have never bent over backwards to get advertisers for any machine.
We are lucky- we don't need advertisers because we are not-for-profit. We can get donations that cover us. We have advertisers to supplement this.
We have refused to kiss ass of some advertisers to get them here. That includes LMS, who put us through a wringer to try to get them to advertise. Screw them.
It includes Charter Oak Automation, whose ads I rejected because of what I saw as poor quality to one of our members, switching motors and other components.
I threw their rep off the forum because of this. I won't accept bait and switch tactics from any advertiser. Don't have to.
Grizzly will never advertise here. Their owner wants to dictate what is discussed about his products on a forum and to have his ass kissed. No thanks.
Sensitivity? I don't think so. If anything, this is the most inclusive mid-sized forum for machining on the internet.

I think this issue has now run its course, so I am asking that we please discuss machining, which is why we are all here. Thanks.
 
Well, thanks to all who shared the dynamics of Chinese sourcing and US business distribution. I seemed to have hit a nerve in this excellent forum. Sometimes a noob (outsider) simply sees something that appears to be one way, but is perhaps not. Anyway, now that the goundrules are clear I hope others who go to "the find, " for instance and have first hand experience with companies such as Baleigh, Shop Fox, Northern Tool, and others will relate their experiences like those who relate experiences with other companies/brands in this forum. In such a way the tool enthusiast might be attracted to or repelled from a particulat source.
 
I'm a newby, less than 4 years. I began with a 6 inch Craftsman lathe, then an 8.5 x 14, a Shen Wai 12 x 36 (great project ), and an almost new 12 x 36 Shop Fox. Prior to acquiring the lathe I purchased their 9 x 49 mill with 2 axis DRO. I have nothing to compare them to but for my purposes and skill level they've been great.
 
I started out a few years ago on a very tight budget. And I bought what I could afford, which was Harbor Freights offering in the mini lathe line up and their 3 in 1 machine the venerable 5980. Both of those machines required a good deal of tweaking and fine tuning to get to do any real projects, but they served a valuable purpose teaching me how to deal with those kinds of issues. I have progressed a good bit in the intervening years but still have and use both of my original machines. It was never the quality of the machines, it was always a question of my ability to translate what I wanted versus what the machine was capable of. 99 times out of 100 the machine has been capable of producing better results that I achieved due to my lack of skill and technique. I continue to be on a super tight disability budget and also continue to learn all the while eyeing newer and better gear. Eventually I will find the limits of what I have, but for now those machines serve me well and enable me to learn how to do the things that must be done to achieve the quality I am looking for. So would I buy another Tiawanese or Chinese machine, in a word, YES. Because they are affordable and continue to improve their quality control and have been coming through with excellent fit and finish every time I look. So do not hesitate to buy Asian, German precision started the same way and look at what they make and the prices they charge now. It is just a matter of time before Asian machine tools follow suit and do the same. Just my .02, but I hope this helps get just one more person interested in learning this dyeing art before it is too late and all the masters are gone... And India isn't too far behind, just give them both a little time...

Bob
 
There are only two reasons why a machine would not be discussed on this Forum. #1 No member owns that particular machine and #2 most if they have no experience with a certain machine refrain from speaking about something they don't know about. All machinery is welcomed here. We do not discriminate here, that is for other sites.

There is one concept that seems to be misunderstood when it comes to machinery. That concept is the machine/operator concept. It is the operator of the machine that makes the machine look proficient, not the other way round.

"Billy G"
 
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May I add about Chinese manufacturing?

I may not be the best qualified person to talk about Chinese manufacturing, but certainly I have more experience in country than most. I was an Expat with a semiconductor company for 4 years in Tianjin, a city Southeast of Beijing, in fact it is the port city for Beijing.

From construction to start up I ran the project management group that integrated and managed the program and schedule from material acquisition to the first product out. I had the opportunity to see first hand how construction mercenaries brought in by Bechtel, our construction company, from all over the world work with the indigenous workers with sub par skills. Along with the hook up company we hired from London, these foreigners had to learn how to integrate the local crafts people into the project. We were greenfield operation for there were not even a single semiconductor certified high purity welder to be had. In the entire Beijing area there was one air ride truck, and we did not want to have for as available basis, that necessitated the requirement for logistics and rigging company from Japan to ship one over.

Within our operation and engineering groups we hired and trained a couple of hundreds of Chinese engineers, trained in the US that is. These engineers were selected from the finest engineering schools in China. And I can tell you I can put these graduates against any of the US, EU, and other Asian grads. I've dealt with these engineers from different countries while running world wide projects for the company.

I have to paint the picture of the work landscape for you guys to appreciate the complexity of the cultural diversity of the workforce all trying to accomplish the aggressive goal to produce the first product in 18 months that includes finish the construction of over half a million square foot manufacturing space.

The Chinese are no different from any workers I've encountered. Human condition is such we all want to do a good job regardless of our role in the hierarchy. Our labor crew lived on the property in temporary housing we built for them and their families and they don't mind working the long hours. Our construction management and 3rd party QA/QC are all foreigners. What we learned and re-learned is that initially the quality is dependent when the construction managers are present. It's not because the local workers are slackers, but because they don't know any better. Example if you ask any US carpenter to erect a wall it will be flat and square. Their Chinese counterpart did not understand why it is unacceptable to have a wall that you see the seams and not straight. That was the biggest challenge during the construction. Can't assume quality, training is paramount, and expectations must be clearly spelled out. Mentoring from the expat leaders to the next local leaders was driven hard for seamless succession.

On the process and equipment engineering side, our expat engineers shadowed and mentored the next leaders and the manufacturing did the same thing. The quality system was introduced and everyone was trained.

What is the punch line of all these? With the Chinese running the machines our first silicon came out on the day we advertised on the released schedule. Our yield exceeded the mature yield from the US operation we transferred the product from and matched the mature yield of our foundry in Taiwan.

Can the Chinese manufacture with the best of them? Yes, but they need to be trained how and why. Just remember just a little over 40 year as ago they were taken to the dark ages where their leadership was seeking the utopic aggrarian nation.

Just my unsolicited input, mods delete if you must.
 
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