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Monarch 10ee round dial Repair

Discussion in 'MONARCH MACHINE TOOL CO.' started by vettebob, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I thought I'd start a new thread showing progress as I work on the Lathe. I removed the motor generator today and disassembled it. I have been debating on on a few different options to power this thing. I may cut down the motor generator housing and turn it into strictly a generator then couple a 5hp single phase motor to it keeping all the original electrical intact for wow factor. Or I have been thinking about stripping all the electrical making a shaft adaptor and installing a vfd with a braking resistor which I have already and wiring it to keep the original elsr features with modern technology. The first option would be fun to clean up and show off. The second would modernize the Lathe make it much more efficient (draw less current) and make it less maintenance intensive less moving parts no brushes or commutator to clean. I am going to have to replace a lot of the paper wrapped wire and some of the other wiring any way due to deterioration.

    What do you all think; original type or newer technology. I'm kind of leaning towards the newer technology. Robert
     
  2. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Did you get my reply to your e-mail?

    Cal
     
  3. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Cal My camera battery died.I have to buy a new one before I can take any more pics. I'm going to best buy tomorrow hopefully they will have one. I'm putting the info together I had already removed the motor generator and dis assembled it yesterday. The Lathe is a Feb 1944 serial number 24628.
    The Motor info is 230 volt armature 12a 115 volt field 1.5a max 400 ohm rheostat. I appreciate your help and will send pics as soon as possible. Robert
     
  4. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Robert,

    You have the machine tool equivalent of a 60's muscle car. Ripping the DC spindle motor out and cramming in a AC motor with VFD is like "upgrading" a '67 Corvette by ripping out the big block V-8 and stuffing in the engine from some import: the new engine might be fuel injected and computer controlled, and maybe even turbocharged, but it will never have the low end of that big 427 L88, will it? And it will never be a classic car again. The 3HP DC motor in your machine is very much a part of the reason that 10EEs are held in such high regard as fine toolroom lathes.

    Maintenance on an MG machine is not a problem. MG drives are extremely reliable and robust; that's why there are so many still around after six or seven decades! Your machine probably has new brushes and you'll likely never need to touch them. If you did, it's a quick job. You'd be able to change the brushes hundreds of times before you invested the time it will take you to adapt an AC motor to the back-gear unit and have a decent machine. Making the ELSR work with a VFD is going to take a lot of additional work and you can forget about your rapid reverse feature.

    There's no need to carve up your MG either. First, I doubt a 5HP single-phase motor is going to fit in the base. Second, your 2-phase motor is like a single-phase motor on steroids: single phase motors have two sets of winding, a run winding and a starting winding, which are electrically isolated and set up to provide a phase shift at start up. Two-phase motors also have two isolated sets of windings, the difference is that both windings on the two-phase motor can stay powered all the time; the starting winding on a single-phase motor will burn up if left connected.

    I checked with my mentor, Bill W. (a retired industrial electrician who's forgotten more about industrial motors and controls than I can ever hope to learn), and he confirms that the two-phase motor can be started just like a single-phase motor, using a suitable relay and starting capacitors. Run capacitors can be added to improve performance.

    Bill also has an idea for running the motor from a 3-phase rotary phase converter: a small boost transformer would be used in addition to the grounded common from the breaker panel. Do you have an RPC or plans to have other machines with 3-phase motors in the future?

    Cal
     
  5. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I have a import lathe and a Bridgeport both using VFD's. I have been thinking about this and will probably keep the original Motor and Electrical system. I am going to start unloading everything from my Truck. Dis-assembling and cleaning next then repair and paint. I'm going to tackle it one small piece at a time. My new lathe is most likely going to turn into a restoration project. However I'm not going for the glossy completely smooth surface. I was thinking more of a hammered paint finish. Robert
     
  6. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Well It looks like I'm going for a full blown restoration keeping all the original electrical but with new wiring. I started stripping paint this weekend. 4 coats of paint on everything. Robert
     
  7. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Took 2 tachs and turned them into one functional one. Here's a pic 002.JPG DSCF2077.JPG
    6 to one gearbox repair next. Robert

    002.JPG DSCF2077.JPG
     
  8. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I repaired my 6 to 1 gearbox output gear today. Here's some pics. 006.JPG 007.JPG 008.JPG 009.JPG 010.JPG 014.JPG I used a ER100s welding filler rod. Then tried milling them with a new 3/8 M42 end mill and dulled it before I got 2 teeth cut so I machined the rest with a carbide end mill. The teeth are still slightly softer than the mating gears dogs.Even though they are slightly softer they should still last my lifetime. I could do a full heat treat on the gear but am afraid it will warp when it cools. I made the dogs .225 high they are about .015 higher than the mating gear dogs. Bob

    006.JPG 007.JPG 008.JPG 009.JPG 010.JPG 014.JPG
     
  9. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Nice work! What kind of welder did you use? Do you have a hardness tester?

    You might want to put a little bit of chamfer on the corners so that it will engage easier.

    Cal
     
  10. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I used a tig welder. Sorry no hardness tester.
     
  11. Chuck K

    Chuck K United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Nice work. I love it when things work out.

    Chuck
     
  12. Ray C

    Ray C United States Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Really nice job on that gear repair!

    From my experiences doing TIG weld build-ups with ER70s, the weld cap is pretty hard and will dull HSS very quickly -can even give carbide a run for it's money even after all the irregular surfaces are leveled-out. I've never measured the hardness but if I had to take a guess, I'd estimate around 45 RC (purely a guess based on machining metal known to be that hard). Mind you, my experiences are limited to repairing shafts with butchered key slots and the repairs are all done with the lathe. Most of the time, I cannot normalize and re-harden the workpiece because I don't really know what the metal is.

    Also, yes, if you knew what metal that gear was made of and if you tried to heat treat it, it would warp due to the stresses imposed by the welding. That center hole would probably go out-of-round is my guess. Right on... leave it alone.

    Again... nice repair.

    Ray

     
  13. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Here are some pictures of my latest repairs. The forward and reverse gear's bearing surface in my headstock were shot so I turned then ground the shafts with my small homemade grinder then turned and installed bronze iolite bushings. DSC00178.JPG DSC00181.JPG View attachment 64612 It took a couple of days to do but hopefully it will last another 20 or 30 years. Bob

    DSC00178.JPG DSC00181.JPG DSC00206_edited-1.jpg DSC00208_edited-1.jpg DSC00209_edited-1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  14. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Here are some more pics of progress DSC00210.JPG DSC00211.JPG DSC00212.JPG DSC00213.JPG DSC00214.JPG I cleaned up the accumulator dial and made a new brass disc for the lock.

    DSC00210.JPG DSC00211.JPG DSC00212.JPG DSC00213.JPG DSC00214.JPG
     
  15. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    ...
    I found new Timken bearing set 28580/28521 Class 0 tapered roller for the rear spindle $200
    New Departure c8504 for the belt tensioner $17 each at Locate Bearings. Bob
    They also have the Front bearing set 29580/29521B Class 0 set for $370 But my front spindle bearings look good. I will check them when I get the headstock back together again and order them if needed. Bob
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2013
  16. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    That's a real good price for class 0 bearings. A set of class 3 front and rear bearings (which is the next class down from class 0) for my Van Norman mill was $504. Class 0 weren't available, short of a special order. I think you'd be silly not to grab the class 0 front bearings at that price.

    Cal
     
  17. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I took my 10EE bed to get it reground yesterday I was quoted not to exceed $1600 at KC Machine. Won't get it back until January sometime
    .
    I also bought a Like new import 6x18 Surface grinder for $800 and $100 in gas to regrind my saddle and cross slide to prep for Moglice or Turcite. I've never used a surface grinder before. Hopefully it's not too difficult to use. I am the third owner and it's original wheel is like new. I think the people who had it before didn't have a clue. The shipping grease is still on the ball ways. The spindle was slid out and barely coupled to the motor and the wheel wasn't balanced causing vibration.

    Cal I will probably buy the front bearing set as well, I just have to make some more money to support this hobby.
     
  18. rw1

    rw1 United States Active User Active Member

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    How true it is! A good hobby to have though…..

    Nice work on the Resto!
     
  19. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I made some more parts today. 2 of the steady rest adjusting knobs were broken off and missing so I made replacement adjusting screws and Knobs. Here's some more pics. DSC00215.JPG DSC00216.JPG DSC00218.JPG

    DSC00215.JPG DSC00216.JPG DSC00218.JPG
     
  20. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Nice work.

    That part is overdue for redesign. Every one that I've come across is bent. I don't know why they used such a large diameter pin.

    Cal
     
  21. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Here's an update, I started doing the body work on the Lathe bed. I pressure washed 2 coats of paint off then stripped the remaining 2 coats. Her are 2 pics back side bare metal front side all bondo'd up. I sand the bare metal to remove the surface rust then apply bondo. When I get everything bondo'd I will prime it with a 2 part epoxy primer. then prep for paint. 114.JPG 116.JPG

    114.JPG 116.JPG
     
  22. Cal Haines

    Cal Haines Active Member Active Member

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    Bob,

    The bondo work looks great. (I know how much work that is.) I'm guessing this isn't your first rodeo...

    You probably know this, but for less experienced readers, be very careful with epoxy paints. A lot of the high-end industrial paints use isocyanate hardeners which are very toxic and require special protective equipment, such as a supplied-air respirator. It's always a good idea to get the MSDS for the paint AND hardener and check the cautions.

    Cal
     
  23. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I've painted a few cars in my younger days. Everyone pay attention to Cal's advice my 2k primer does have some nasty stuff in it and it's hard to sand. The only advantage to it is it's durable. That's why I'm going to use it on all top surfaces where coolant or cutting fluids are. Everything else will be done in urethane primer. I bought a gallon of graphite gray urethane to paint the lathe in. I will be using a fullface respirator. Bob
     
  24. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Made a new cross feed Leadscrew today here's a pic of the old one and the new one. I started with a nook screw then turned it down, threaded the short end and slotted the long end for the telescopic function and soldered the solid bushing on the slotted end. Bob

    002.JPG
     
  25. DAN_IN_MN

    DAN_IN_MN United States Active User Active Member

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    Bob

    What was wrong with the old one? Worn?

    Just read your thread. Nice work.
     
  26. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Thanks The old one was worn about 10 thou in the middle I ordered a new nut as well off the guy on ebay. My only concern is it's brass not bronze.
     
  27. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Got my first coat of primer on the lathe bed today. I'm going to pick up my lathe bed on Thursday from the grinders. Here's a couple of pictures. Bob 001.JPG 002.JPG

    001.JPG 002.JPG
     
  28. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    I picked up my Lathe bed from the grinders Thursday. Unfortunately I got the flu and can't play. Maybe I can finish sanding and reprime the lathe bed in a couple of days. Bob
     
  29. vettebob

    vettebob United States Active User Active Member

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    Painted the Lathe Bed today here's a couple of pics. Bob 002.JPG 003.JPG

    002.JPG 003.JPG
     
  30. valleyboy101

    valleyboy101 Canada Active User Active Member

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    Hi Bob,
    That is one magnificent finish - with all the work of stripping, filling and painting you must be pretty proud. Looks like custom car quality. If you could please answer one question. I have a lathe (Cromwell) which is suppose to have a tachometer driven off the motor armature voltage - do Monarch use electricity or mechanical means to drive the tach?
    Thanks,
    Michael
     

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