Master precision Machinist level

[tim81]

Do you "need" to.... Well, no.

Would it benefit you? Maybe. Probably even. But probably not as much as it would first seem.

Here's my opinion on those. I want one, but I don't have one and won't be getting one any time soon. I live in Vermont, I work in a basement, and seasons change. You're in PA somewhere, so I'll bet this affects you as well. Winter, seasonal ground moisture changes, and a general shifting of anything built into or onto the ground. Your floors are gonna move enough seasonally to drive that level bat(crap) crazy.

Yes, it can make things VERY level. And that's great. It's a shortcut to get set up. But in the end, after your setup, you're going to end up (probably) doing it over, and over, and over... When in fact that is not necessary. Is it nice? Sure. It'd be cool if you could do an accurate setup off of your mill table with just that simple measurement. But things move.

Now, if you're repairing, rebuilding machines... You need to compare surface A to surface B... Yeah, at some instant in time this can be a very powerful tool for comparative readings. But for leveling a mill as an assembly? Not needed. For leveling a lathe? Even if you got it leveled "perfect", you're still going to end up doing the final tweaks (probably tweaking -away- from perfect), by the cuts it takes.

I think, until you're into serious stuff, what you NEED is a carpenter's level, and the diligence to check level with the level in both directions, until the bubble offsets match. That'll get you pretty far if you pay attention to it.

Now that I've said that... It is a good tool. You'll tear your hair out over it, probably more than a few times. But it's a good tool. If you WANT that tool... I bet you've spent more on tools that weren't "needed" for some particular job. My suggestion is, if you want one, stick it on your luxury list, and wait for a good deal on a used one, a fire sale on a new one, or when you're in a position to grab one "just because you can", without worrying if it's going spoil the tool budget and keep you from more useful and/or necessary tooling.

This advice is from a guy who is prone to using a tenths and/or a 50 millionths indicator (good grief those things are fiddly, to a degree that will make the level in question seem easy....) to inspect parts who's tolerance might be five or ten thousandths. Just to try to "see" and understand the sizes, shapes, and general imperfectons of seemingly (and practically) perfect parts that clearly are just how they are supposed to be. Stuff made with tools that are not reasonably capable of working to those tolerances. For me it's not necessity, it's more of a studying and learning thing than a practical measurement. If you WANT that level, there's no reason you shouldn't have it, and will probably enjoy using it, and will probably find a thousand ways to do useful things, borderline useful things, and totally useless things just for an excuse to use it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just wouldn't put it in the "need" category.

I have carpenters levels, 2 of them one short one long. If I don’t need it now. Will put it on my wish list.

Thanks a lot guys for helping me out.

 

[GL]

A machinist a work had a master precision level. When most of his hair was gone, he got rid of it and only used his 98-12. Lathes need to be in plane more than level - level is just a “convenient” plane to measure against. Measuring turned collars lets you know you are turning straight. It’s difficult to move a leveling screw only enough to move things a tenth. Mills tend to stay in plane by virtue of their structure, they don’t twist like a lathe. So, no, you don’t need one, but feel free if you want one. And yes, the guy at work got his hair back, mostly.

 

[RJSakowski]

I purchased an 8" level with a sensitivity of .0005"/10" for a little less than half that price on eBay. It has the same design as the Amazon offering and only slightly less than the sensitivity of the Starrett 199 master precision level (.0005"/12").

I wouldn't use a carpenters level for anything better than a rough-in. A typical carpenters level or masons level will move the bubble .1" for a slope of 1/8"/ft. The Starrett 98 levels have sensitivity of .005"/ft which is 25 times more sensitive. The 199 level is 250 times more sensitive.

 

[PNW_Guy]

My tools are reasonably accurate, but not "tenths per foot" accurate.

I'm not building rockets, and getting within 0.001" is fine for the tractor parts and other crap I make. My mill is 25 years old. And I do this for fun.

I'd rather spend my play money on a new tool or material than making sure my mill is at NASA spec.

That said, if you want your stuff to be completely dialed in, and it makes you happy, go for it. It's not going to hurt, even if it doesn't add any value.

 

[Dabbler]

Do I need to get a precision machinist level at my very very early stages of learning.

@tim81 in a word, no.

to qualify myself - I have 2- Moore and wright .003 per foot machinist levels and an offshore .0002 per foot level very similar to the one you pointed out...

1) the .0002 per foot levels are very VERY hard to calibrate. They do NOT come calibrated from the factory. Mine has a messed up adjuster screw, masked by blue locktite. When the locktite was removed, there was a galled and frozen adjuster thread. When I fixed it and set it up on my surface plate, I found the adjuster screw thread to be too coarse to get it even close to being calibrated. One day I might make a differential screw adjuster for it, but I have 4,273 more important projects to do.

2) A .001 per foot or a .003 per foot is just fine for establishing minimal twist in a lathe. Even the Starrett .005 per foot machinist level is more than adequate. You can even use a plumb bob to remove the twist in the lathe bed to within very reasonable limits. PM me for how to do this.

3) there is no reason on earth why you need to level your milling machine, except for vanity.

4) You can develop the skill to remove the twist in the lathe bed by making yourself a 2 collar bar. This is essential to removing the last few tenths of twist in a lathe bed anyway. The level is only there to get you close, and save you some time.

 

[SouthernChap]

Fellow beginner here.

Eh, I've yet to even make any chips on my little 7x14 (had a little accident with a hydraulic press when installing new angular contact bearings in the headstock*, so have had to order a new headstock casting; arriving today hopefully, Royal Mail willing).

When I read about levelling a lathe (reducing/removing twist in the bed really; no need for a lathe as a whole to be level), I figured I'd need a machinist's level and bought a cheap Dasqua 6" (150mm) level. However, I then read about Rollie's Dad's technique and turns out I could have done without.

£100 ($126) is about two-thirds of the cost of a decent clone Aloris style quick change toolpost with some toolholders, or most of the cost of a nice Mituyoyo dial test indicator, or a decent shop vac or will go towards a decent bench grinder...

So maybe don't be like me!






*yes I know, why not use the thing with the original deep-groove bearings and learn and have some fun? Eh I had it in bits anyway for cleaning and fettling and I have a terror of not being able to discriminate between my lack of skill and the failings of kit when starting a new hobby. I am aware this is not necessarily a balanced, constructive and healthy perspective.

 

[ddickey]

You can use a plumb bob to level the lathe if you don't have a precision level.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

If you're just beginning I think you'd get a lot more return for your money spending it on other things. I don't even have one of those little magnetic digital angle things and I've got by just fine without a precision level. Not saying I wouldn't buy one if I found one cheap you know, I'm not crazy!

Now that thing is a game changer and way more useful that I ever thought.

If the OPs question we’re about that and given the $30-40 price tag I would say yes, definitely.

I paid for mine out of pocket (BeeAll tools Tilt Box 2) and it came in so handy at work and engineering was so impressed, they bought everyone one. I even got to pick a tool out of the catalog for bringing this to their attention.

Now the “Tilt box 2” is no where near as accurate as OPs item, but it is much more versatile.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

My tools are reasonably accurate, but not "tenths per foot" accurate.

I'm not building rockets, and getting within 0.001" is fine for the tractor parts and other crap I make. My mill is 25 years old. And I do this for fun.

I'd rather spend my play money on a new tool or material than making sure my mill is at NASA spec.

That said, if you want your stuff to be completely dialed in, and it makes you happy, go for it. It's not going to hurt, even if it doesn't add any value.

I think a lot of the home shop guys would be floored to find out that 70% of the nice shiny, seemingly “Perfect” things they see or envision having close tolerances really are +- .002 or .005

From what I’ve seen a print for a part that is specced .000 is generally +-.005 and one specced .0000 is either +- .001 or .0005, that is of course unless otherwise noted, which is the kicker.

A critical part will have the tolerances/allowances noted on the tolerance block on the print.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Fellow beginner here.

Eh, I've yet to even make any chips on my little 7x14 (had a little accident with a hydraulic press when installing new angular contact bearings in the headstock*, so have had to order a new headstock casting; arriving today hopefully, Royal Mail willing).

When I read about levelling a lathe (reducing/removing twist in the bed really; no need for a lathe as a whole to be level), I figured I'd need a machinist's level and bought a cheap Dasqua 6" (150mm) level. However, I then read about Rollie's Dad's technique and turns out I could have done without.

£100 ($126) is about two-thirds of the cost of a decent clone Aloris style quick change toolpost with some toolholders, or most of the cost of a nice Mituyoyo dial test indicator, or a decent shop vac or will go towards a decent bench grinder...

So maybe don't be like me!






*yes I know, why not use the thing with the original deep-groove bearings and learn and have some fun? Eh I had it in bits anyway for cleaning and fettling and I have a terror of not being able to discriminate between my lack of skill and the failings of kit when starting a new hobby. I am aware this is not necessarily a balanced, constructive and healthy perspective.

Dude, document this in your fettling thread.

Seriously, it will be cathartic.