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Logan 11" Lathe - Wiring

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by Flyrod, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hi All - not an electrician, or very experienced with things electrical so please excuse use of incorrect terms etc

    Pictures are here

    https://goo.gl/photos/s1zNnkMc1c65ipu86

    Objective: run the lathe on 220v, off of a double pole 15 amp breaker

    Issue: I cannot remove the motor without a lot of work - i have access to the wires coming out of the motor, but they have paint overspray and even where they do not, I cannot read the markings on the wires - the motor originally had the wires labelled T1, T2, T3, T4, T5 and T8 - but as I said, i can no longer make out the labeling - so, I am trying to see if i can back into what is what through these questions - the motor does have all 6 wires

    when i bought the lathe it was running, but i don't know if the outlet was 220 and neither did the seller

    going into the lathe is 12/3 rubber cord - there is a wacky set up where a shut off switch was added before the shut off switch that came with the lathe (i think it came with it) - to be clear, what i mean by 12/ 3 is 12 gauge and a black, white and a green

    from the shut off switch appears to be a 14/3 (again, black, white, green) that goes to the fwd, rev, stop switch that came with the lathe - however, exiting the switch and going to the motor is a 12/4 cable - black, white, red, green

    according to the diagram on the motor, if it were run as 115, there should be 2 bundles of wires - and if 220, there should be three bundles...a single motor wire to line, two different wires to line and a bundle of three called "tape" - i don't know what tape means

    what i actually have at the motor is 4 bundles - one with two motor wires, one with two motor wires, one with one motor wire and one other with one motor wire

    that doesn't match any of the diagrams on the motor ... so i really don't know what i have

    the cut off wire in each of the four bundles corresponds to a wire going back to the switch and can be seen on the photos of the switch and on the penciled sketch

    anyone have any idea how i can tell which motor wire is what to properly wire it for 220??

    thanks (and sorry for the length)
     
  2. Z2V

    Z2V United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    IMG_1190.PNG IMG_1191.PNG You can figure this out with an ohm meter. The motor has three separate coils in it. T1-T2, T3-T4, and T5-T8. I don't know the exact reading but t1-t2 should read same as t3-t4 with t5-t8 being a different value. Separate all the wires coming out of the motor. Pick a single wire with one lead of your meter and find another lead that gives you a reading. Note the reading. Repeat with another random motor lead, you get the idea. In the end one group will have a different reading, that will be T5-T8. With that info and the diagram on the data tag should get you pointed in the right direction.
     
  3. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    Did the cord have a plug on it , or wired direct when you got it. You need a grommet on that motor hole and an external box attached there . Running that size wire really isn't needed on that motor or switch.
     
  4. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    What Z2V said is correct, I wanted to elaborate on ringing out the windings: when you find the start leg (the T5, T8 winding) the meter will first show a low resistance and then climb towards infinity due to the action of the start capacitor on the motor. If you then reverse the leads on your meter you will see this again, the meter dips then rises. This is much easier with an old fashioned needle type meter- even a cheap Radio Shack model would be fine for this test.
    Mark S.
    Once you have the motor wires identified then we can tackle the rest of the wiring
    startleg1u.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
    Z2V likes this.
  5. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Looking at your pictures it looks like the two red leads coming out of the motor are the start leg wires. Test those first. The wiring looks pretty ratty, recommend redoing most of it. Keep track of the bundles coming out of the motor for now.
    Mark S.
     
  6. CluelessNewB

    CluelessNewB Active Resistor H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I came across this table in my travels. It may be a good starting point:


    Single Phase Terminal Markings Identified By Color: (NEMA Standards)
    1-Blue
    2-White
    3-Orange
    4-Yellow
    5-Black
    6-No color assigned
    7-No color assigned
    8-Red

    P1-No color assigned
    P2-Brown
     
  7. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    thanks all:

    will test as suggested

    plan on rewiring everything

    agree the wiring is over-sized (other than from the cut off switch to the fwd/rev/stop switch (which is original and brittle like dried parchment) which appears to be 14/3) - according to the tables I am looking at, and the motor tag that says 5.4 amps at 22ov, 14 gauge wire should be plenty with a 15 amp double pole breaker - agree?

    will check back in with results
     
  8. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Z2V or Mark (or anyone) - i am an amateur with the multimeter, but i have one - to be clear, this is a continuity reading in that each of coils creates a loop? - or am i supposed to be using a different function on the multimeter?

    thanks

    EDIT: after re-reading your posts and watching some utube videos it became clear we were testing resistance and not continuity...sorry for being slow
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  9. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    it had a plug on it - it was a standard three prong plug...i realize that leans toward 115 v wiring at time of purchase, but ....
     
  10. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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  11. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Yes Fly you will use the ohms function on your meter for continuity
    14 Ga wire is fine for 220 volt service
    You haven't found the start leg yet- we need to see the result I posted above, a dip and rise
    Are you using a digital multi meter?
    Mark
     
  12. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Mark ... our messages crossed - see "EDIT:" to post 8...finally figured out it was ohms for resistance

    results above in post 10

    look forward to next steps!

    thanks!!
     
  13. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Fly; I'm not sure we have enough useful info yet from your tests- we may have to work back from the reversing switch a bit to see what was there-
    We shall prevail however, stick around. Let me peruse your photos a bit more and I'll get back to you shortly..
    Mark
     
  14. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    if it helps, i'll try to decipher what went where:

    the most important thing to note, now that i confused myself for awhile, is that the paper diagram is backward - that is, i sketched out the fwd/rev switch as it was upside down - so the x in a circle at the bottom is the engagement lever - what shows to the left of it on the piece of paper is actually to the right of it when it is mounted

    so for example, in this photo:

    20170617_193546.jpg


    the green wire that was part of the 12/4 cord that ran between the switch and the motor (i.e., being held in my hand) is attached to one of the red wires on the motor

    per the piece of paper:

    20170616_174141 (1).jpg

    the other end of that wire goes on the first terminal in from the rev/fwd lever on the LEFT side - BUT, once the switch is installed, it would then be on the RIGHT side - clear as mud?

    if anything else is unclear please let me know

    note that one black wire is used to bring around the middle left (as oriented on the paper) to the other side - that wire does not originate in the incoming wire or the wire to the motor, it just bridges the two sides (just below the scratch out)
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  15. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Fly I'm not even sure it was wired correctly to begin with- I can't tell if it's set up for 110 or 220 either.
    Can you remove the start cap from the motor and give it the ohm test? You should get a dip and rise like I explained earlier. Then we can go forward from there.
    Mark
     
  16. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    That reversing switch looks different from most I am familiar with- does it have a make and model # ?
    Mark
    drumswFR1.jpg
     
  17. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Mark - entirely possible - gear train was jury rigged with improper gears and cams


    Doesn't post 10 do what you want?

    So 2 pair are 1.5 and 1 pair (the 2 reds) is 6.5

    I added photos to the album as well

    Or are you asking for something different?

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  18. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    No Fly post 10 doesn't give me enough. I also need a better explanation of the wire colors in this picture: I need the bundles and colors one by one. That one you are touching, what color is that big wire that's tied to red?
    Mark
    motFRtred1.jpg
     
  19. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Also Fly what kind of meter do you have? Digital or analog (needle type)? Can you post a pic of it?
    Do you know how to post pictures using the "upload a file" button? (saves time)
    Mark
     
  20. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Fly it looks like the two pairs that read "1.5" (I assume ohms) are the run windings, but the "6.5" pair doesn't make sense yet. That's why you need to check the start cap.
    Mark
     
  21. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    there is no standalone maker mark on the switch

    anyone else out there with a logan 11" with a reversing switch? does this look stock?
     
  22. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    ok, here we go:

    1. a bundle of green, red, black and white in a piece of 12/4 rubbercord went from the reversing switch to the motor

    2. Green: green was originally attached to one of the two red motor wires - this is the pair that is in the picture you quoted and asked what color it was

    3. Red: as per picture below, red was attached to the other red motor wire

    20170617_193556.jpg

    4. Black: as per the picture below, Black was attached to 2 motor wires, one green and one blue/green:

    View attachment 23 20170617_193604.jpg 5864[/ATTACH]


    5. White: also in the picture above, you can see white attached to the final 2 motor wires - don't be fooled by the appearance of what you see - the motor wire colors correspond most closely to white and yellow

    6. Reversing switch: to see where the other end of those four wires above connect to the reversing switch, please reference the drawing below - it is the wire on the right entitled LOAD (I don't know if that is correct use of that word) - recall an earlier post where I said that the drawing is of the switch upside down - so what appears left in the drawing is actually right when the switch is installed

    I do not know what the "start cap" is - can you please elaborate a bit on that?

    thanks 20170617_193556.jpg 20170617_193604.jpg
     

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  23. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    yes - i was reading Ohms - so 1.5 ohms of resitance on two bundles (the white/yellow bundle and green/blue-green bundle) and 6.5 ohms on the red/red bundle

    i do not know what the start cap is
     
  24. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Mark - it is a Fluke 117 - picture below shows the setting i used and where the leads were plugged in
     

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  25. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    OK

    I have ID'd the switch

    i have added a bunch of photos of the label from inside the switch cover to the album (link below) - it gives various diagrams (not sure if any match what we are doing) - it is a Furnas "drum" switch - i believe the model is D2058 (or that is the id of the label)

    https://goo.gl/photos/s1zNnkMc1c65ipu86

    an internet search shows this - not sure if it is exactly my model (also it is showing 115 only and not 220)


    drumswitch001.jpg

    finally there is this thread from PM (again not sure if it is exactly my model - this is an "instant reverse" - i don't know if i have that) - post 18 seemed particularly interesting:

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...nas-drum-switch-instant-reverse-motor-179232/
     
  26. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks Fly we are making some progress (even tho it may not seem like it yet)
    The start cap (capacitor) is under that "bump" cover on the side of the motor.
    Mark
    PS your Fluke will measure capacitance directly. Just compare the reading with the value printed on the cap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  27. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Flyrod: I have determined your machine was in fact wired for 115 volts, and probably did work. Go ahead and check the cap (disconnect at least one cap lead first)
    and if you can wait 24 hours I can post a clear diagram on how to connect for 230 volts.
    Mark
     
  28. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Many thanks Mark!

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  29. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Fly this should get you going provided your start cap and centrifugal switch in the motor are ok:
    Be sure to provide a solid ground to the motor and drum switch case. (not shown in schematic)
    If the motor rotation is opposite the switch label swap the red wires OR the blue and yellow.
    Mark S.
    Motschem1dm.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  30. Flyrod

    Flyrod United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thank you Mark!

    Back in shop next week

    Will report back

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     

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