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Discussion in 'MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING' started by expressline99, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK a couple of things to bring up. I did have the gibs on the cross slide and compound replaced by a shop here in town. I supplied the gibs as bought from Logan. I had them measure things....however at that point (maybe 2015?) I had even less of a clue. When I got the parts back they had things tightened up to the point it limited movement too much in my mind anyway. Much later I started using it and spotting things to fix....or wanting to fix. While I was replacing the spindle bearings on my Bridgeport rebuild I found a set of NOS bearings to fit the Logan. About two months ago? One month who knows. But it's got new bearings...oh and a new motor and a new serpentine belt....I put a QC tool post on it. But didn't have the mill so it's a round nut. That needs work.

    I want to make my own feed screws. But I need a follow rest to cut the acme threads on both. I think it would be a good learning experience to do those. The nut is no problem I have taps for those. It has lots of backlash in the cross feed and the compound feed. The lead screw/half nuts seem to be in good shape. Almost no backlash. I have learned from being on here that backlash in a lathe is easily overcome by backing out enough. I never noticed the compound was able to twist until just a couple of months ago. Because it would POP when touching off on the work occasionally.

    The guy I got it from was up around Tahoe city I think. 2014 Had a 10ee in his garage and a tempering oven he had just built.

    So here we are. I will paint the new legs hopefully by the end of the week and figure out what to do about the chip pan.

    That's it for my explosion of thoughts to drain out of me from today. lol

    Paul
     
  2. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It's obvious I need a machinist level for this and to level this and the Bridgeport. What do I look for and what length?
    I'm sure this will have to sit for a while to reform with my floors the way they are..and the frame it's mounted on seems to stay with all 4 wheels down...

    I'm working on the patience thing. Lucky you guys that I have the mill to fix otherwise I'd be even more of a mess on this topic!
     
  3. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Very true I wish one of my tenants was a machinist! Oh and I just remembered I need the 5th Leg! For that outboard motor setup :(
     
  4. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    On the taken it apart see previous reply...plus I've cleaned all moving parts thoroughly

    OK so do you feel I need to read each section on all the different machines? Or are there lots of redundancy? I don't mind doing so if needed.

    Wax on Wax off Master Bob! :) I guess you could call me Paulson but that might get a little weird. 8)
     
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  5. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I think you can read and understand well everything up to and including the lathe section, which is the first machine section, and you will have the gist of it. Throughout the book there are AHA! moments that apply to the other machines as well, so I also suggest a slow and pensive read of the entire book. I must be a real geek, but I use stuff like Machinery's Handbook(s), Machine Tool Reconditioning, and other machining tomes as bathroom reading. A little at a time, sometimes need to go back a page or two and get back up to speed, gives me time to ponder each paragraph until it clicks and sinks in. The best time to learn is when we are not in a hurry...
     
  6. tertiaryjim

    tertiaryjim Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I find an 8" is very handy for leveling across the bed and for leveling along the bed length.
    For checking the ways on the compound and cross slide a 6" and 4" are nice.

    It's best to use the shortest level that will "reach" across the support points.
    If possible use precision parallels or V-blocks at the support points rather than having the entire length
    of the level sitting on the ways.

    Some will say that a Sarrett 98 level isn't accurate enough but with proper use they will put you
    within a couple of tenths/foot or better.
    Having been a millwright I've long had a lot of the tools that most people have to go out and buy.
     
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  7. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    It is pretty easy to get the wrong level. Just because it says Starrett or Pratt and Whitney on it does not mean it will work for you. Length is important, get it wrong and you will have issues. For general use on a lathe, I would recommend a level long enough to bridge the width of the bed, or a little longer. You will be able to do what you need to with it. If it is too long, it will not fit where it needs to on other jobs, if too short, it will not bridge some gaps. There are workarounds, but blocking levels up unnecessarily leads to tolerance stacking, and is to be avoided as much as reasonably possible. My precision level is .0005" per 10" resolution, is 8" long, and is a Chinese import. It works fine, a bit fussy to calibrate. The accuracy is perhaps too high for leveling a lathe, because it gets quite fussy, but I also use it for other jobs where I require the better resolution. Many people use levels with .005" per 10" resolution (count the zeros!), and I think that borders on not accurate enough for some work, but likely OK for leveling a lathe, as I understand leveling a lathe. I do not like cheap electronic levels at all, make sure you clearly understand accuracy, resolution, and repeatability before reading the specs, if they actually give the specs. High end electronic levels are great, but very expen$ive, and can be fussy. Choosing a level is not a place for penis envy, we need to carefully consider what we need and how close we need to be, and then get to it with the correct tools. Otherwise it is possible to fuss around all day and only get frustrated, or get it done quickly and easily, but not getting the results you think you need. Working once with an old pro can be enlightening...
     
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  8. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    So they don't rate levels on 12" of resolution? Or is resolution dependent on manufacture? I don't need an electronic level. I think with a level that was in the 1/2 tenths I could get done in a day leveling the lathe. LOL I think the fuss factor would be really high for me! Oh I don't have envy with something like this. I don't know where to start other than one idea by brand you shot down for me ;) So you both are saying possibly a level that is in the .005 resolution per 10-12" at some length past the width of the bed? An 8" is wider than the bed is. Would that level be good enough to level the mill when I get to that? Where I stand today I am not sure where I could even begin to use a level that is in the tenths.

    Today's reading test bars for spindle testing.
     
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  9. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Well, mine says ".0005" in 10" resolution" on it. That is probably a conversion from a metric value, the level is made in China. Any level that will fit across the ways should be a good level for leveling the lathe, and will certainly work on your milling machine as well. Machines do not need to be level for use, just geometrically correct, but being level helps with setups, often helps the coolant flow to the drain, and round stuff does not roll off onto the floor as readily... ;) I think .005" in 12" or thereabouts would be fine for leveling your Logan, but others may well disagree...

    Edit: I forgot that you are thinking about scraping it in! In that case, perfection is your friend. .005" in one foot would be .020" over a four foot bed. Fine for dialing in a running lathe, but I don't think you want to scrape that much off of your lathe! In reality, you won't, of course. But a good leveling job will be the start of mapping out what needs to be done to the lathe overall. Don't skimp on that part of the process!
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  10. Bob Korves

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    Paul, you can borrow my level (short term!) if you want to for the initial mapping of your lathe.
     
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  11. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    This sounds a lot better than me getting the wrong one! :) I have an interesting idea for this.
     
  12. tertiaryjim

    tertiaryjim Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The starrett 98's are .005"/12" Doesn't matter what the length of the level is. They have the same vials so give the same reading.
    There are tricks to get the maximum accuracy though it will take more time.
    When using feeler gauges with the levels the length of the level must be considered.

    For starting on the compound ,it needs to be checked for parallel with the ways. an indicator would be better for this but you need a stable base
    that can be moved from one side of the saddle to the other and/or slid along the ways and still retain zero.
    Dont forget that the bottom of the compound and the mating surface of the cross-slide have to be checked and perhaps scraped for contact as well.
     
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  13. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Do I need to order some feet for these legs? Or will the Bolts they have do? Seems like bolt heads aren't what would normally be there? They don't have any cups/feet to go under them.. I would think there would be large rubber feet that tilt to the floors contour to displace some of the weight a little more.

    I hope to scrape everything in that needs it. For sure the compound and cross feed surfaces.
     
  14. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Guys,

    This thread has gone from scraping irons to precision levels to footing for the lathe bed. Please start a new topic on this.
    If this continues on this thread it will get closed. This has been a great thread relating to the topic, now time to get back on topic. Let's talk about scraping irons here!

    Ken
     
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  15. Rustrp

    Rustrp United States Active Member Active Member

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    While I agree the thread has gone many different directions the topics are good and we're still discussing the same new (old) lathe and the new member here along with being a new lathe owner with lots of questions that would get lost if he moved them around to fit the square into the specific hole. Sometimes it's better to just flow. There are plenty of posts here that have nothing to do with machining, that go on and on, and while I appreciate the problem presented they have nothing to do with machining other than a hobby machinist is asking the question. e.g. Removing a gate cane bolt stuck in the concrete.

    It's Friday, don't worry be happy, and have a good weekend.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  16. Rustrp

    Rustrp United States Active Member Active Member

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    If you need leveling then it needs to be done with steel levelers or shims and if the legs have bolts you could get some with larger heads or put steel shims on the floor. There are vibration isolators designed to level precision equipment but you are not in that arena. Stay with the first few items on your list and the rest will fall in place. Restoring isn't HDTV, it's a slower process and no matter how it happens, it seldom gets completed within the hour allotted for the (un)reality TV show. Here's a link if you choose to go this way. -Russ
    http://www.industrialcasterandwheel.com/specialty-products/levelers.htm
     
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  17. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Alright, I agree. Scratch what I said and finish on. Something like that!

    BTW- Those levelers are nice. I put a set on my 14" Rockwell lathe which didn't have a way to level without using shims.
     
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  18. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK so for as small as this lathe is can I assume anything that fits the threads in the legs will work? I am planning on putting more weight on the legs to reduce even more
    vibration. Total overkill but I just happen to have lots of iron now. :D

    I do however want to get the surface plate situation taken care of. Without that I can't even work on practice scrapings. I have lots of things to practice on without getting near the lathe.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  19. Rustrp

    Rustrp United States Active Member Active Member

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    Vibration? Okay, I'm leaning a little towards Ken's earlier comment. I thought we were discussing a Logan 200, so where does the Harley fit in?:D
    This may be the time to look for a project manager. :tranquility:
     
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  20. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Send it to Rustrp,
    He doesn't have anything else better to do. Oh wait a minute, did I say that.:oops2:
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  21. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You guys are my project managers! :) So far you guys have kept the cost below $10,000... at least as far as you know.

    We are but I'm preparing for the Leblond Regal 15 x 54 I need to get back. I had one and sold it before I had time to use or learn how to use it. 10 years ago just before I moved into this house. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I sold that. I realize the project "subject" doesn't justify doing all these things to it. It's a 70 year old tiny lathe. But it's a consciousness captivity machine I'm after. It's wonderful you guys are humoring my ideas. I really do appreciate it.

    No Harley to be found here. I quit riding on the street along time ago. Did I mention I sold some motorcycles when I sold that lathe? lol

    Anyway, back to scraping and leveling. I watched part of a video today on calibrating levels. oxtoolsco. Very interesting that it can be done pretty much on any surface level or not. Great instruction there. The taking the twist out of the lathe makes total sense before scraping in anything. Since that would throw off any reference points you may have had.

    Paul
     
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  22. tertiaryjim

    tertiaryjim Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    IMG_0376.JPG IMG_0377.JPG
    I like that little 4" level as it tucks right into the dovetail. The base of the compound and its mating surface were scraped for contact.
    Parallels are needed to span the ways and dovetails.
    In the second pic is a parting tool with red tape on the handle. Thats what I used to scrape the compound with.
    Just saved you twenty bucks.
    OK, I was desperate.
    You mentioned a faceplate. Checked mine and the surface that mates to the spindle had maybe 25% contact so I scraped it as well.
    It's all a amateur job but when I can make a consistent flaking pattern it will be torn down for improvements.
    Before starting, any oil I put to the ways just ran right out. After scraping I couldn't get oil into it till after I made an air outlet.
     
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  23. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The scraping tool I have for practice is a file that Bob helped me sharpen. Your parting tool scraper is in good company. :)

    How many passes do you think it took to scrape down the compound? On yours you did it all with scraping no other machining to get it closer first?
    Or did you mill or grind them first?
     
  24. Rustrp

    Rustrp United States Active Member Active Member

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    Well it can't be said that I don't look for a challenge..:D

    In this case the quantity of projects comes into question. I know of at least three; There's a surface plate stand and mount, a BP top-end overhaul and the Logan 200 10" in progress. First, I think we should add leveling the garage floor (float it smooth) and add a unique one of a kind epoxy covering. They can even add machine decals, any metrology tools, formulas, into the mix just to show the level of H-M addiction.

    http://elitecrete.com/
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
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  25. tertiaryjim

    tertiaryjim Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    How many passes?
    I don't even know how many days it took. Arthritic makes me slow and not knowing what I was doing could have had some small affect.

    Would like to have machined all surfaces flat and square but the lathe was so far out that strength might have been affected and I didn't have the strength
    to scrape all those surfaces.
    Yea! Its that bad. So I just got the dovetails lined up to the edge a bit better, flat and even.
    The factory clearly machined the lathe with little reguard to the standard reference points and didn't bother
    to keep surfaces on the same plane. Some of the problems are probably due to green castings.

    Don't let anything scare you off.
    Read, Learn, Prepare your tooling. Watch for tool deals while you study and plan.
    Measure and record your compound readings on drawings prior to starting.
    The results will be magic and something to be proud of.
    Then you'll want to start scraping everything.
     
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  26. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I worked at a facility up in Huntsville, TX (Place didn't have razor wire fence around the facility, that place was down the street from us) Management came in and had about 25,000 sq/ft of this done to the shop floor. It was nice and expensive! Was like $125 sq/ft.

    We really getting off topic now!!!
     
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  27. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I've got superior OCD for my H-M addictions. The BP "complete" head rebuild is 98% all I have to do is mount the motor. I changed the motor bearings a couple of days ago. That is an extremely exhaustive one. Which I can tie into scraping here. I was looking at the column and it still has scraping on the flats. Pretty much visible the entire length. But I would imagine that's because its not getting any contact wear.

    I am a living challenge. :) If you guys want to add something to the list I was considering adding a 3 car(8 machine) garage to my house in addition to the 2 car. Which will require removing the dual septic tanks and connecting into the street sewer line which is 11ft in the ground....and my house has brick on the outside so that would have to be removed on a 1/4 of the house...and a new curb cut and entry into the property from the street made :D
     
  28. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I won't be scared of it. I'm thoroughly familiar with Meloxicam been on it for several years. I always know when it's going to rain! :)

    Reading, learning, preparing and listening! The recording of measurements should be fun There are a lot to make note of. However, my drawing skills are substandard at best.
     
  29. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    For scraping in of the compound and cross slide etc what grade of plate am I going to need? Will grade B work? Or should I get at least an A? I've been chatting with someone selling a Starrett pink 24 x 24 x 4" Grade B. He says it's new but been in storage for 10 years. Still has original packaging. If I can buy it and get it home for 500$ or less should I do it? I know it's plenty large enough.

    Paul
     
  30. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A used surface plate has no grade unless it has a current certification and you know first hand how it was cared for since then. It is only a grave marker until it is calibrated and certified to meet the tolerances of the grade. Surface plates bought used can only considered to be cores, not usable tools, at least in the strict sense. They are complete unknowns, unless you have a certified and calibrated autocollimator, and a repeat-o-meter, both tested to do good work, and the acquired skills to get good test results. I bought my surface plate in known suspect condition, and had it calibrated and certified. It looked wonderfully flat. Chasing a tenths indicator mounted on a surface gage around the plate told me essentially nothing useful. When it was calibrated it initially tested at .003" out over the 18x24" plate, hollow in the middle. That is the Grand Canyon in surface plate land. Pretty, Starrett pink, and shiny do not equal flat. Again, ALL used surface plates are just cores, unknown quantities, until proven otherwise. I paid $50 for the core, and about $100 to have it calibrated to grade AA and certified to grade A. If I had paid more for the core, it might have been better to just buy a new plate.

    Paul, grade B is workshop grade, for testing things and doing layout on the shop floor. It is also probably accurate enough to be a master for your lathe, if it is in current calibration, not after 10 years of storage. At this point the accuracy would need to be verified ($$$).
     
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