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Help Me Pick Lathe, Grizzly G4003g Or Baliegh 13x40

Discussion in 'GRIZZLY INDUSTRIAL INC.' started by JoeC, Nov 13, 2016.

  1. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Hi, I'm ready to buy my 1st lathe. Threading gun barrels is one of my primary uses for it.
    I can buy a new Grizzly G4003G for $3470 delivered or a lightly used Baliegh 13x40 with DRO for $3900.
    $3900 is all I can spend for a machine.

    Spinldle bore is about the same on both.
    The Grizzlyis 12x36 and has the outboard spider and warranty.
    The Baliegh is 13x40 and has the DRO and is 4 years old, with all the original parts.

    I'm leaning towards the Baliegh. Any reason you would get the Grizzly instead?

    Thanks,
    JoeC
     
  2. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    Is the Baileigh local, so you can see it before you buy it?

    Look for any indication of damage on compound slide and QCTP that would indicate it has been crashed. Get him (or do it yourself) to take a 0.040" cut on a piece of aluminum round stock to see what the surface finish looks like. Did he ever use coolant with the machine?

    It is always a buyers market for used heavy machinery; I would offer him $3200 and see what he says.

    Grizzly's version of the Baileigh sells for $4700, and Precision Matthews sells it for $5000.
     
  3. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Its local. I have seen it run. He has been turning rifle barrels with it and they look nice. I couldn't find any signs of damage. The machine has a coolant pump, but I don't know if he used it. He had a 24" barrel between centers on it. It made me wonder if a 12x36 was big enough for 24" barrels.
    What is the longest barrel between centers reasonable for a 12x36?
    I'm trying to convince myself that the DRO and larger 13x40 outweigh the 12x36 being new.
     
  4. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Remember that "between centers" means exactly that and no more. If you put solid centers, not extended ones or live ones, in the headstock taper and the tailstock taper without the quill extended, and move the tailstock to the furthest right end position possible, then you should be able to put a part with centers 36" long between them and spin it. You cannot do that if one end is on a center mounted in in a chuck. Also, being able to mount 36" does not necessarily mean you will be able to do the work you want to on it. Facing the right or left ends of the work or turning the entire length might be a real challenge. Doing operations on the ends of the work like boring or grooving will probably not be possible with a capacity size piece of work. Also pay attention to the "swing over cross slide" and "swing over compound" dimensions. They can be quite limiting with long parts.

    Edit: Also note that Chinese specifications are usually stretched to the max. It a lathe will fit a 35.5001" long part, it is labeled as a 36" lathe. Not like an old Monarch that might be labeled an 18" lathe, but would actually turn 21+" over the ways. The days of delivering more than you promise seem to be pretty much dead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  5. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Yeah, I've been wondering exactly how 36" between centers measured out. I don't have a machine to reference. For a machine spec of 36" between centers, whats the longest reasonable part you could turn between a live and dead center and make normal operations and use of the quill without going to extremes?
     
  6. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I would see if he is the original owner and the reason he is selling it. How old is the Baliegh? Seems to be a variant on current models, price wise if you add a DRO to the G4003G you are about the same, also depends what comes with the Baliegh as far as tooling and chucks... I would lean to the Baliegh if it checks out fine and comes with the usual chucks/accessories. The G4003G seems to be a bit of a love hate relationship, either its great, or people seem to have a lot of issues. But not a lot of new equipment options as far as the price and range you are looking.
     
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  7. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    I'm sure he is the original owner. He spent a couple hours showing me around. This one is 4 years old. He also has another one identical to it but only one year old for an additional $500. My choice. Plans didn't work out so he is still a one man shop. Comes with the same stuff as the Grizzly. D4 camlock. 3 jaw, 4 jaw, faceplate, steady, follower.
    The machine looks good, sounds good. Still, I have this apprehension about used equipment. I'm leaning towards it anyway.
     
  8. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    This is what bugs me about the Baliegh I'm looking at. When he told me about how he lifted it to move it from one location to another. Lifted just long enough to move the trailer under it. With the table attached with a fork lift. Forks above the machine. One strap under the frame on the tailstock end, as per the instructions,
    The other strap wrapped under the chuck. Is the D4 camlocks and spindle bearings enough to not affect its cutting tolerance? It doesn't appear to have hurt it but the thought makes me cringe.
    Any first hand experiences?
     
  9. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    I wouldn't do it personally... but it is a very common way to lift lathes.

    The proof is in the results. If what he is turning in the lathe looks beautiful, then it obviously didn't hurt it.

    I would go for the Baileigh over the G4003G if he will negotiate on the price a bit.

    pm'd you.
     
  10. kgowedan

    kgowedan Iron Registered Member

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    I have had a 12 x 36 lathe (Enco) in the past and did barrel work with it with great success. I now have the G4002 12 x 24 and do the same thing without any difficulty, as all of my barrels are un-threaded, un-chambered and pre-turned to taper/diameter. If I was turning the barrel blank to final taper/diameter, the 12 x 36 would be the better choice. I have used Grizzly products for years and you can't beat the tools for the price and warranty. The G4003G lathe was developed for the gunsmith in mind and is an excellent value with warranty. Without giving it another though, I would go for the Griz. The only thing needed is to upgrade to the Shars 6" and 8" Zero-Set fine adjustment self centering scroll chucks.

    https://www.shars.com/files/products/catalog2015/page110.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  11. BGHansen

    BGHansen United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have a Grizzly 14 x 40 G0709 and love the machine; have a fondness towards my experiences with Grizzly. However, I'd go with the Baleigh. The Baleigh has a speed range of 70 - 2000 RPM, the 4003G has a range of 70 to just 1400 RPM. The Baleigh has a D1-4 spindle, the 4003G a D1-5 with a slightly larger (1.57" vs. 1.5") spindle bore.

    The 4003G has a Norton style QCGB which is good and bad. Good is you get through the 4-112 threading range with no gear changes on the quadrant . Down side is you'll have oil on the chip pan from lubing the gear box, it's louder and open on the bottom so chips can get up and in the gear box. Down side on the Baleigh is you have to change gears on the quadrant to get to all of your threads per inch. It probably has a similar gearbox to the G0782 which uses a 48, 46 or 52 tooth gear in the quadrant. The 46 is used for 5 3/4, 11 1/2, 23 and 46 tpi. The 52 is used for 6 1/2, 13, 26 and 52. So if you do a lot of 1/2 - 13 threading, you'll probably leave the 52 tooth gear in the quadrant and get whatever feed rates that yields on the longitudinal and cross feeds (not a big deal).

    There are lots of posts here about guys' experience with the 4003G. In general, they like them - after all of the bugs were worked out. With the Baleigh you are getting a turn key lathe.

    Another thing to look over is the rest of his shop. If things are a mess, I'd question how well he's cared for the lathe. If things are organized and clean to the point of being anal, the machine has likely been well cared for. You'll like having the DRO too. I added one to the G0709 for under $400 from TPACtools.com, works great! However, it took me around 5 or 6 hours to install it.

    Good luck with the hunt!

    Bruce
     
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  12. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Have to agree with Bruce, I have a Norton gearbox, and it can be messy and noisier. Given that this individual has two machines (and purchased a second one of the same model), means that he probably liked them and the bugs or any issues have already been vetted. If there was damage to the spindle, they weren't running true, he wouldn't be unloading both or have used them for gunsmithing. I doubt a 4 year old machine used by a single individual with two lathes have much wear and tear, so they are probably just broken in. I would check out both carefully, listen to any strange noises, go through the gears, etc. Then you can haggle on the price, and you might see if there is additional tooling that he might bundle with the machine (like tool holders).

    My D1-4 spindle is 1.57", so pretty much the same as the Grizzly, might vary slightly by machine. On this size machine, I do not think it makes any difference of a D1-4 vs D1-6 from a rigidity stand point of view.
    Mark
     
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  13. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thank you, everyone, for the advice and details about the differences in the machines.
    I will go with the Baliegh. Now if I can find a day to make room for it and a day to move it....
    I'm sure I'll need more advice as I learn to use it.
    Thanks,
    Joe
     
  14. jjtgrinder

    jjtgrinder JJTGRINDER H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I just bought a 4003g and it came with a LED light and ran very smooth, no vibration. See my post about the setup.
     
  15. ksmith

    ksmith United States Swarf Registered Member

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    I am thinking about buying a g0776 anyone had any experiences with this one?
     
  16. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    The Go776 looks about like the Baliegh PL1340e I finally got moved home. I haven't done much with it yet.
    What I find odd is you have to move the spindle lever up to get it to run clockwise and the bump button runs the spindle counterclockwise.
    I expected the opposite of both of these and hope I can swap a couple of wires to change them, unless someone knows a good reason to leave it like it is.
    Comments, please.
    Joe
     
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  17. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Totally non intuitive. Change them as soon as you can and before you break something or hurt yourself. Find the manual online or look at the one that comes with the lathe and see if somebody wired it wrong. It is not correct...
     
  18. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks for the confirmation. Maybe it will be straightforward as swapping a couple of wires.
     
  19. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    I learned on a Jet ZX1440 lathe. All the Jet machines have the same control scheme as you are describing.

    When I bought my Grizzly 1440 (G0709G) for my home, it took a bit of getting used to what was (for me) a backwards way of control.
     
  20. Sandia

    Sandia Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Joel, it is pretty simple to change the direction. There is a switch on the headstock end of the lathe on the control rod. Simply reverse those two wires.
    Hope that helps.
     
  21. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    I rewired it in the terminal box so the spindle lever works like I want it to and got the bump button to turn the spindle clockwise too. No sparks or smoke!

    Now, about the D1 4 cam locks. I thought they were supposed to lock half way between the arrows. They unlock lined up on the "|" mark. From this position, should I turn clockwise or ccw to lock? They don't position like the manual, which is clear as mud.

    | is at the top (lets call it 0 degrees). < Arrow 90 degrees clockwise at right. Another ^ arrow 180 degrees at bottom.

    1st cam lock will turn ccw 90 between | and ^, or, cw 45 between | and <.
    2nd cam lock will turn ccw 135 between | and ^, or, cw 135 half way between ^<.
    3rd cam lock will turn ccw 135 between | and ^, or, cw 90 to 1st arrow.

    Please advise.

    Should the chuck always be mounted using the same cam lock pins in the same cam lock holes?

    Thanks, Joe
     
  22. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The cam lock pins should be installed in the spindle with the dial marks lined up with the marks at the top, and then turned clockwise and should be tight between the two arrows. Watch out for the fit on D1 series mounts. The chuck needs to be snug on the spindle taper at the same time that it makes complete contact with the spindle face. Use a piece of white paper on the enclosure side that is brightly lit to look for light gaps between chuck and spindle face. Do not force the cam locks if it does not work, come back for more help, the chucks and back plates sometimes do not fit correctly to the spindle when new.
     
  23. tmarks11

    tmarks11 Active User Active Member

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    The switch box should have two microswitches. One for the forward direction and one for the reverse. There are probably four wires going into it, and the way it is wired is somewhat convoluted (NC on one microswitch feeds into the other microswitch). Chances are if you swap the wires connecting the "Normally Open (NO) terminals between the two microswitches, it will swap directions. Or let the magic smoke out.

    And that won't solve the problem of the JOG switch going the opposite direction the OP wants.

    So to fix both in one fell swoop, you need to swap wires in the junction box on the motor, or where the motor wires come into the controller (assuming enough slack to swap positions on this end). YMMV, but if you swap the wires from the U1 and U2 terminals, it should switch directions.
     
  24. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks, Tim. Already fixed it inside the terminal box.
     
  25. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    The machine is 4 years old. Moving the chuck cam lock pins to different spindle holes causes the cam lock indicators to line up similar to what I mentioned before, but still don't lock in between the arrows.
    The owners manual adjustments don't make sense and seem to be for a different spindle, so I'm waiting for further comments before I try to fix it. On the spindle, there seems to be an Allen head screw for each cam lock.

    Joe
     
  26. dpb

    dpb United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The cam locks should be able to rotate slightly, with the cap screws in place. If you remove the cap screws, you can rotate the cam locks one full turn at a time. If any of them currently lock up properly, check the height of that lock compared to the others, and adjust the others accordingly. If none lock up, screw them all in too far (cam surface below flush), and then raise them all one turn at a time, until it fits up properly.
     
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  27. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Thanks for the tips guys. I got the can locks adjusted and the chuck mates up to the spindle face with no gap.
    I have to rap the chuck with the dead blow to get the chuck off.

    I found the lock screws for the compound and carriage. The manual for the Grizzys are way more detailed than the one I have for the Baliegh.
    The Grizzly manual describes the Baliegy pretty well. Where it shows the cross slide lock, I have a long cap head screw on the tail stock side under the DRO.
    I turned it in until it stopped on the screw shoulder without binding the cross slide. I wonder if this is really the cross slide lock?

    What brought up the locks was I was turning a piece of Al stock and noticed that if I ran the carriage back and forth the tool bit would continue to take off small amounts of material. Is this normal or is the cross slide creeping?

    Thanks, Joe
     
  28. Bob Korves

    Bob Korves H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    When a cutter cuts, it is also pushed back by the work. On the next pass at the same setting, any springiness creates another cut from the remaining tension. We call that a "spring pass." It is not uncommon to be able to remove metal from several spring passes, with lesser amounts from each succeeding pass. It does show, however, that the lathe is not perfectly rigid, and no machine is. Dull cutters and anything else that causes the cutter to produce more push pressure into the cut will cause that more than sharp and properly presented tools, but the effect is always there.
     
  29. Chipper5783

    Chipper5783 Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    There is usually some spring (deflection) in the tool / machine / work, so subsequent passes may well take off a small amount of additional material. Usually one would retract the tool when returning the carriage.

    Cross slide lock? They are not very common. I added one to my small lathe, because I had the cross slide all apart, and I thought it would be handy to have a cross slide lock. That was a couple years ago and I have yet to use it. Managing backlash is done by paying attention to what direction the tool is pushing, for normal turning I don't really see when one would use a cross slide lock. Maybe if you are having vibration issues, it may help to lock up which ever slide isn't being used?

    When the only machine I had was a lathe, I set up a milling attachment - it would have been very nice to have had a cross slide lock on that machine. Anyway, perhaps others could share where they find a cross slide or compound lock useful.

    Now a carriage lock, that's a different story - there is nothing really keeping the carriage from sliding, I use the lock frequently.

    Let us know how you make out. Regards, David
     
  30. JoeC

    JoeC United States Iron Registered Member

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    Great! Thanks for explaining the spring action going on. I was afraid the cross slide was moving.

    So, with the lathe, I got a few HHS bits, carbides, and some tool holders that take inserts, with a couple packs of new inserts.
    All are left and right angle, except one straight 60 degree HHS and one straight that takes inserts. Most of the inserts are narrow, maybe 30 degrees. There is one about 55 and one about 80 degrees. And a couple of 60 degrees. When would you use the 30, 55, and 80 degree bits?
    And for threading, is the nose of the bit pointed or rounded like the other bits?
    For turning or facing, do you use a left hand bit just for workpiece clearance or some other reasons?
    Is a straight bit preferred for simple turning or the A or B? How far from perpendicular can you reasonably angle a bit?

    Thanks for your thoughts, Joe.
     

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