Getting Started: Lathe Questions

[RobertB]

For someone with little experience new offers many benefits #1 being no guessing if you are getting a good machine or a used and abused one.

In some cases, not so much. Just like used, you have to do your research before buying. There are some new machines that are junk and have zero dealer support or parts availability. Some of them from manufacturers that have been around for a while. Some from fly-by-nights that just re-brand one of the junk machines, tell you how wonderful their warranty is and then are out of business 3 months later.

If you have issues, a quality dealer has good service available. If you need parts / accessories you have a ready source for them.

This for sure. Research not only the reputation of the machine, but that of the dealer as well. When you buy new you are paying a premium for warranty and dealer support. If neither exist that premium is money out the window

 

[Joeman77]

How fast did the outlay for tooling come? It seems like tooling would be bought a little at a time as you identify what you need.

I can spend more money later, but the budget to get started is pretty fixed. That's what makes finding the right balance so difficult. I could build a 40x60 shop...and have nothing left for tooling. A smaller shop -> more money for initial machine purchases. If I spend 7500 on the lathe and 5k on tooling, there's nothing left for a mill.

Maybe that's the answer. Put off the mill for a year or two. Or maybe spend 7500 on the mill and put off the lathe... I had thought to split the difference and cut back on tooling for a year. That's why I asked the question. What am I getting for the extra $1000 - 2000, and is it really worth it for what I'm likely to be doing.

Lots of good questions! Once you settle a shop size, the equipment budget will be easier to define. I think hardened gears & ways would be a plus the extra size is always a plus. You can do tooling as you decide you need it, might even be able to pick up some of it on sale, Shar's & HBC run some pretty good specials from time to time.

 

[T Bredehoft]

Just a thought, unless you're using your lathe 40 hrs a week, you won't wear out unhardened ways in your lifetime.

 

[Moderatemixed]

I thought about going the used route, and might consider it yet if I found the right machine. The biggest thing that scares me is I don't know enough to judge if the machine is in good shape or not. The other is that at least around here you are just getting a bare bones machine. I haven't found many that include anything like the preferred package on the 1236, much less more tooling.

Every one of us is quick (and happy) to comment and spend another guys money. Agreed, when you buy used you run risks but that said......... When you look a machine over, check out the shop around it. Is it clean, are things organized, is there oil in the cups and reservoirs? These are the basics, but more often than not wear is not a mystery, it occurs in typical places, and is predictable. Parts in most cases are replaceable and repairable. I have a 24 inch Starrett straight edge. When I evaluate a machine I look at the overall price, and then start to look at condition as it pertains to “what I may have to fix). My 24” straight edge is accurate to half of a thousandth of an inch, cost me $132.00 Canadian dollars and is something I use in my shop more frequently than you might expect. It will show you well enough the wear in a lathe bed or mill table. Wear in the bed or table is where the expense of regaining or repair starts to add up; particularly when it comes to the logistics of moving, dismantling etc. I know at this point you will be saying to yourself, “I can’t be bothered”. So to my point, having spent ungodly amounts of money on the ridiculous I have learned several things. 1. This hobby is as much about the ride as it is the destination. 2. By dismantling a machine’ to whatever extent, you learn the machine, it’s nuances and quirks (they all have ‘em). 3. You will learn (as I did) that while aiming for .0001 accuracies, you will be lucky to get .001 accuracy’s and oftentimes settle for +/- .002 in the beginning. 4. Every guy, young and old on this cite want to spend your money! 5. You can spend literally thousands and tens of thousands thinking that you are going to be completely set up and “the king of the castle”. But the old guy down the street who has spent a lifetime meticulously building his shop with skill and opportunity will always have a better shop than you; time and experience have priceless value. Good luck brother!

Derek.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Firstgear]

Thanks, ttabbal. The preferred package contains about $1200 worth of tooling... One of the big reasons I'm considering it. I would consider The "T" model, except it is only 1.5 HP, doesn't have hardened gears, and is actually 100# lighter. Everyone is saying it is the better machine, but I'm having a hard time seeing what it is that makes it better.

Lol, I wonder if it isn't a lot like cars. A lot of people say that a BMW Z4 is a better car than a Mazda MX-5 - it costs about 25% more. (But in that case, you can at least point to more horsepower, not less!) But I like my miata better. It gets me where I'm going, its fun to drive and doesn't break the bank. I don't see where I what I would be getting for 25% more money in the Z4.

When I get closer, I'll have to ask PM about motor options. Another motor I would be interested in is the 2 Hp Brushless DC from the 1228VF-LB.

I had both a Miata and a BMW Z3 before my Corvettes....the Z3 had a bunch of Dinan upgrades and was much faster than the Miata. From there I went into a 2003 Corvette Z06...more power and better cornering..upgrade ...just like machines!

 

[matthewsx]

Others have addressed most of your questions but I'll throw something else in here. Since you mentioned spending more on a lathe now and waiting to get the mill I think is a fairly reasonable plan if you think it will work out for you.

I've had my lathe for probably 15 years now and don't really have a mill yet (I am building one). There is a lot more work that can be done with a lathe than most novices think, many operations that are done with a vertical mill can be done on a lathe with some planning and ingenuity. Also, if you have a lathe (and know how to use it) you will be able to work on other machines so you can possibly take on a vertical mill refurb as a project.

If I were in your position I would seriously consider building the bigger shop and holding off on a mill for a year while I learned the basics of running the lathe. You mention just a mill and lathe but you will also want a grinder, sander and drillpress at a minimum. You'll need measuring tools, a surface plate, and safety equipment as well.

So, think about how much time you will be able to put into your hobby and where your investments should go and in what order. Learning how to do good work with any of them will take a bigger investment in time than money. There's a reason why the manual lathe is still an important tool even in the most modern professional shops, it's really the most versatile machine tool out there. Doing manual work on a lathe will give you a better understanding of everything in this hobby. You may figure out that a CNC mill is what you want at some point since it can do things that aren't possible on a manual or would take way more tooling.

If it turns out you really love the hobby you'll be glad you bought a capable lathe to start with, if not then a quality machine will have a better resale value. I don't have any experience with Precision Matthews but I tend to think that Taiwan quality would be worth the extra money otherwise why would they offer it. I wouldn't be worried about 1/2 hp either way, if you really need lots of power in a lathe you should probably be looking at 5hp machines.

The hardest part of your equation to change in the future is your building. Machines can be bought and sold fairly easily, expanding a building is way more time, effort and money. Also, a building is useful for whatever hobby or enterprise you or someone else will do in the future and will add to the value of your real property.

Bottom line is, my vote is for getting the building right first. Learning how to use a lathe will take plenty of time and you will have time to save for any future machine purchases.

Just my two cents on how to spend your money


Cheers,

John

 

[Aaron_W]

In some cases, not so much. Just like used, you have to do your research before buying. There are some new machines that are junk and have zero dealer support or parts availability. Some of them from manufacturers that have been around for a while. Some from fly-by-nights that just re-brand one of the junk machines, tell you how wonderful their warranty is and then are out of business 3 months later.



This for sure. Research not only the reputation of the machine, but that of the dealer as well. When you buy new you are paying a premium for warranty and dealer support. If neither exist that premium is money out the window

Sure there are crummy brands so new doesn't relieve you of researching a machine. Simply new you don't have as much concern about the individual specimen like you do with used.

Another advantage to starting smaller / cheaper is by the time you really have an idea what you need, you also are likely to be more comfortable shopping the used market so more options.

 

[ArmyDoc]

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If I were in your position I would seriously consider building the bigger shop and holding off on a mill for a year while I learned the basics of running the lathe. You mention just a mill and lathe but you will also want a grinder, sander and drillpress at a minimum. You'll need measuring tools, a surface plate, and safety equipment as well.

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Bottom line is, my vote is for getting the building right first. Learning how to use a lathe will take plenty of time and you will have time to save for any future machine purchases.

Just my two cents on how to spend your money

Cheers,

John

Thanks John. I appreciate the input. Everything has to be balanced - Shop, Machines, tooling, money, and you bring up the most important one: Time. I'm in no great rush. If I can build a good shop this year, a good lathe and enough tooling to do somethings, I can wait till next year or the next for addition.

I do expect to get more tools. I'd like to make some of them - such as a belt sander. Do you think the grinder is replaced by a 2 x72 belt sander, or is required no matter what. What about the drill press, still needed even if you have a Mill?

 

[ArmyDoc]

I had both a Miata and a BMW Z3 before my Corvettes....the Z3 had a bunch of Dinan upgrades and was much faster than the Miata. From there I went into a 2003 Corvette Z06...more power and better cornering..upgrade ...just like machines!

Lol. I love cars. Drove all of those before settling on my miata. That said, this new C8 mid-engine definitely has me drooling...

 

[matthewsx]

Thanks John. I appreciate the input. Everything has to be balanced - Shop, Machines, tooling, money, and you bring up the most important one: Time. I'm in no great rush. If I can build a good shop this year, a good lathe and enough tooling to do somethings, I can wait till next year or the next for addition.

I do expect to get more tools. I'd like to make some of them - such as a belt sander. Do you think the grinder is replaced by a 2 x72 belt sander, or is required no matter what. What about the drill press, still needed even if you have a Mill?

Yes, time is the one thing none of us can get any more of; with your career I'm sure you understand that more than most....

Building a belt sander will be a great project, one that you can probably do with your son the weldor. But you will probably want at least one bench grinder, 6" or 8" with a decent rest. I also like the cheap Harbor Freight 4" angle grinders, at $10/ea I keep one with a cutoff wheel, one with a grinding wheel and one with a flap disk.

A vertical mill can be substituted by a drill press but there are jobs that are quicker and easier with the drill press though and both are always available used for cheap. Get at least a 17" model with a 1hp motor, I can't imagine running a farm without both the grinder and drill press even if I wasn't a hobby machinist.


Cheers,

John