Getting Started: Lathe Questions

[ArmyDoc]

OK, so let's talk about my first major equipment purchase: a lathe. (I went round and round on this vs a Mill, but ultimately I want both, so... lets start with the lathe)

Everyone asks, what are you going to do with it. That's hard for me to say - I'm know so little about this new hobby of mine I don't really know what I might get into. But here are some projects I would like to try: Machinist puzzles (captive nut, impossible dove-tail cube, 4 inch Turners cube), model steam engine, Pivots for some farm implements, making cutting tools for lathe and mill, possibly minor (pistol sized) gun-smithing.

I've been looking at lathes in the 12-14 in size, mostly PM stuff, because their site is very well laid out, and they have a good rep.
I had wanted to spend ~$3k, but that's been blown out of the water. Right now I'm looking at the PM 1236 vs 1236T. I would love to get the 1340T, but I can't justify $6600 ($7400 with DRO) bas59ed on what I'm seeing in the specs. But I haven't ruled it out, I just need someone to explain why it is worth the extra cash for me.

So, I have some questions I hope you can help me with. For equivalent tooling the 1236 is $4000 ($4700 with DR). The 1236T is $5160 ($5910 with DRO), and the 1340T is $6660 ($7410 with DRO).

What can I not do with the PM1236, that I could do with the 1236T (or 1340T)?

The 1236 is actually about 100# heavier, has a 2Hp motor vs. 1.5Hp. The only down side is it isn't 3 phase. How important is 3 phase? Could I convert it later, if so how much would that cost?

The 1236 has hardened and ground ways AND gears, where as the 1236T only has hardened ways. To get hardened ways and gears you have to jump up to the 1340T, and then you get hardened shafts too, but that costs $2000 more than the 1236. I'm not going to be using this thing every day I don't think. Just on weekends.

I'm leaning strongly towards the 1236. What am I missing?

My budget for the lathe and mill is about $10,000, and another $2500 for tooling. I initially had budgeted a bit more, but you lovely folk convinced me to increase my shop size. It's all a balancing game - spend a little more here, means a little less there. So far the cost of the shop has gone up 10K with a strong desire to go up 20k. But if I do that, I really start to run out of $$ for the mill and lathe, tooling etc.

 

[Firstgear]

You arent budgeting enough for tooling....ultimately you will spend 50% of your machine outlay....and I found that to be truewith my experience. So you need more budget there.

Secondly, the real issue for you is how you embrace this hobby. If it becomes something that you really like, you will want a better lathe...if you dont, then you will be glad that you didnt. In my case because I have wanted to make chips for more than 14 years, so I bought a knee mill and a bigger lathe...PM950V and a PM1440GS. Cost a bunch of money, but I have no regrets 9 months later.

Good luck with your choices....

 

[ArmyDoc]

How fast did the outlay for tooling come? It seems like tooling would be bought a little at a time as you identify what you need.

I can spend more money later, but the budget to get started is pretty fixed. That's what makes finding the right balance so difficult. I could build a 40x60 shop...and have nothing left for tooling. A smaller shop -> more money for initial machine purchases. If I spend 7500 on the lathe and 5k on tooling, there's nothing left for a mill.

Maybe that's the answer. Put off the mill for a year or two. Or maybe spend 7500 on the mill and put off the lathe... I had thought to split the difference and cut back on tooling for a year. That's why I asked the question. What am I getting for the extra $1000 - 2000, and is it really worth it for what I'm likely to be doing.

 

[ttabbal]

It's tough to beat the 1236 preferred package from a bang for your buck perspective. Compared to the "T" model is tricky. The "T" is made in Taiwan vs China. It's generally going to be made to tighter tolerances and likely be higher quality. That said, PM does a good job with quality control before they send it to you. I don't think you can really go wrong with either. For a hobby guy, I think I'd lean towards the normal version and use some of the savings on tooling.

You can save some money on the DRO if you install yourself. Some will say that you don't need one on the lathe. They are right that it isn't as big a difference as on the mill. However, having done it both ways, I wouldn't want to go back to not having it.

Tooling can add up fast. However, the PM machines come well equipped. You can be turning metal with what's in the crate and a tool bit. Adding a drill chuck for the tailstock is almost required though, and a live center. You probably already have drill bits. Maybe add some center drills.

HSS grinding can push the costs down and give you some nice tools to work with.

I like the variable speed on my lathe. You might ask they they can swap the motor for 3phase and add a VFD. I'm surprised that the Baldor motor upgrade isn't 3 phase. It's not the end of the world not to have it though, and you can swap the motor out later.

 

[Moderatemixed]

I went the “used” route. There are plenty of machines in very good condition looking for a home. I would budget 2X the cost of the machines for tooling, rotary tables, dividing head, etc etc etc. This hobby is like a series of “rabbit holes”. It would be unusual for you to “not like it” and drop it entirely..... instead, it will be interesting to see where it takes you over the next year, two years, five years and ten years respectively. You will over that time find yourself with several machines, as you”mature” into the hobby. Save the big expenditures for later, when you know for sure what you need, want and like. I started out with what was basically an unlimited budget, and had a great time “STUFFING” a shop FULL. Subsequently I have learned to temper myself, buy what I need, and not what I think I need. The hobby is more fun that way. Good luck with it. Cheers!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Firstgear]

How fast did the outlay for tooling come? It seems like tooling would be bought a little at a time as you identify what you need.

I can spend more money later, but the budget to get started is pretty fixed. That's what makes finding the right balance so difficult. I could build a 40x60 shop...and have nothing left for tooling. A smaller shop -> more money for initial machine purchases. If I spend 7500 on the lathe and 5k on tooling, there's nothing left for a mill.

Maybe that's the answer. Put off the mill for a year or two. Or maybe spend 7500 on the mill and put off the lathe... I had thought to split the difference and cut back on tooling for a year. That's why I asked the question. What am I getting for the extra $1000 - 2000, and is it really worth it for what I'm likely to be doing.

It can come as fast as your projects or you dictate. In my case I bought everything I thought I would need and then some. I didn’t want to have to wait to get the tooling I needed for a project. I wanted to keep going. That is the trade off.

Also I found sources for material. I probably over did the material as I have a bunch of Aluminum. Much of it I paid $0.50 per pound for. When do you buy material? When you need it or do you have it? You see the trade off.

As well as lathe and mill, I bought a horizontal band saw and just bought a disc/belt sander combo. Again I bought a new machine. Not that new machines can’t have problems, they do. But I didn’t want to be fussing with an used machine while I was trying to get something done.

You see there are lots of trade offs. I went with I have money but don’t have time....that’s my approach. Right or wrong!

I didn’t want to be on my death bed wishing I had done something else.....

 

[ArmyDoc]

It's tough to beat the 1236 preferred package from a bang for your buck perspective. Compared to the "T" model is tricky. The "T" is made in Taiwan vs China. It's generally going to be made to tighter tolerances and likely be higher quality. That said, PM does a good job with quality control before they send it to you. I don't think you can really go wrong with either. For a hobby guy, I think I'd lean towards the normal version and use some of the savings on tooling.

You can save some money on the DRO if you install yourself. Some will say that you don't need one on the lathe. They are right that it isn't as big a difference as on the mill. However, having done it both ways, I wouldn't want to go back to not having it.

Tooling can add up fast. However, the PM machines come well equipped. You can be turning metal with what's in the crate and a tool bit. Adding a drill chuck for the tailstock is almost required though, and a live center. You probably already have drill bits. Maybe add some center drills.

HSS grinding can push the costs down and give you some nice tools to work with.

I like the variable speed on my lathe. You might ask they they can swap the motor for 3phase and add a VFD. I'm surprised that the Baldor motor upgrade isn't 3 phase. It's not the end of the world not to have it though, and you can swap the motor out later.

Thanks, ttabbal. The preferred package contains about $1200 worth of tooling... One of the big reasons I'm considering it. I would consider The "T" model, except it is only 1.5 HP, doesn't have hardened gears, and is actually 100# lighter. Everyone is saying it is the better machine, but I'm having a hard time seeing what it is that makes it better.

Lol, I wonder if it isn't a lot like cars. A lot of people say that a BMW Z4 is a better car than a Mazda MX-5 - it costs about 25% more. (But in that case, you can at least point to more horsepower, not less!) But I like my miata better. It gets me where I'm going, its fun to drive and doesn't break the bank. I don't see where I what I would be getting for 25% more money in the Z4.

When I get closer, I'll have to ask PM about motor options. Another motor I would be interested in is the 2 Hp Brushless DC from the 1228VF-LB.

 

[ArmyDoc]

I went the “used” route. There are plenty of machines in very good condition looking for a home. I would budget 2X the cost of the machines for tooling, rotary tables, dividing head, etc etc etc. This hobby is like a series of “rabbit holes”. It would be unusual for you to “not like it” and drop it entirely..... instead, it will be interesting to see where it takes you over the next year, two years, five years and ten years respectively. You will over that time find yourself with several machines, as you”mature” into the hobby. Save the big expenditures for later, when you know for sure what you need, want and like. I started out with what was basically an unlimited budget, and had a great time “STUFFING” a shop FULL. Subsequently I have learned to temper myself, buy what I need, and not what I think I need. The hobby is more fun that way. Good luck with it. Cheers!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I thought about going the used route, and might consider it yet if I found the right machine. The biggest thing that scares me is I don't know enough to judge if the machine is in good shape or not. The other is that at least around here you are just getting a bare bones machine. I haven't found many that include anything like the preferred package on the 1236, much less more tooling.

 

[ArmyDoc]

It can come as fast as your projects or you dictate. In my case I bought everything I thought I would need and then some. I didn’t want to have to wait to get the tooling I needed for a project. I wanted to keep going. That is the trade off.

Also I found sources for material. I probably over did the material as I have a bunch of Aluminum. Much of it I paid $0.50 per pound for. When do you buy material? When you need it or do you have it? You see the trade off.

As well as lathe and mill, I bought a horizontal band saw and just bought a disc/belt sander combo. Again I bought a new machine. Not that new machines can’t have problems, they do. But I didn’t want to be fussing with an used machine while I was trying to get something done.

You see there are lots of trade offs. I went with I have money but don’t have time....that’s my approach. Right or wrong!

I didn’t want to be on my death bed wishing I had done something else.....

I can definitely relate to the more money than time aspect. That's the primary reason I decided to go new rather than used. I don't want to spend my time fixing the lathe rather than using the lathe. OTH, there have also been times when I have spent far more on equipment than was needed. I have several thousand dollars worth of camera equipment that comes to mind. Great stuff and lots of fun, but I would have probably have done just as well with lesser equipment based on what I produced with it.

I suspect that the primary difference between us is that you have / had more knowledge going into this than I do. You mentioned spending 14 years wanting to make chips before pulling the trigger, and some of your other posts you mentioned working in engineering. I have very little background in machining. The last time I did anything in this realm was over 30 years ago as an undergraduate. If I had your background, it would be a lot easier to recognize what I need vs what I want and the dollar value between the two.

 

[Aaron_W]

Used or new is an endless debate with good points to both. Used can be significantly cheaper, it can also be frustrating. Even if you buy well you may spend a lot of your time getting it up and running, hunting down desired tooling etc. In some regions the cost difference is quite large since there is a large supply of quality machines available holding used prices down. In other areas there is not a lot available so selection and savings are much less. You would need to ask around to find which you are in. Another benefit to used is the depreciation has already occurred, so if you decide to go bigger, smaller, different you can sell for roughly what you have into it. New you will lose 40•50% even selling in never made a chip condition. If in good condition many older machines are just nicer. Although most are long out of production parts and accessories for many of the bigger names are still available, although often at great expense.

For someone with little experience new offers many benefits #1 being no guessing if you are getting a good machine or a used and abused one. If you have issues, a quality dealer has good service available. If you need parts / accessories you have a ready source for them. New machines generally come with a warranty. Particularly at the smaller / cheaper end new machines may have better features than older machines.

Something that doesn't get brought up much but may be worth thinking about, is multiple lathes are handy to have. When you really don't know what you want or even what you will do with it, then starting smaller / cheaper with an 8-10° lathe may be a good idea. It doesn't take up a ton of room as a second lathe, and even if you sell it you are out a lot less than buying bigger and finding you didn't buy the right machine the first time. It can also buy you time. Buying something like a Grizzly 9x20, or older US 9-10° lathe will set you back $1000-1500, not $4000-6000. This size machine typically has all the features of a large lathe, unlike most mini lathes. Used it to learn, maybe find it is all you need, or maybe find you really want a 14-40 and you can wait until that is in the budget but keep working and learning until you can get that bigger machine.

Much the same can be said for mills. Lots of people are happy with a 9° lathe and mill drill which new are still cheaper for both than you are looking at in just the cheaper of the PM lathes. Mill drills like the dreaded RF-31 make a very sturdy drill press that can mill when a larger mill enters your shop.