Getting Started: Lathe Questions

[ArmyDoc]

Used or new is an endless debate with good points to both. Used can be significantly cheaper, it can also be frustrating. Even if you buy well you may spend a lot of your time getting it up and running, hunting down desired tooling etc. In some regions the cost difference is quite large since there is a large supply of quality machines available holding used prices down. In other areas there is not a lot available so selection and savings are much less. You would need to ask around to find which you are in. Another benefit to used is the depreciation has already occurred, so if you decide to go bigger, smaller, different you can sell for roughly what you have into it. New you will lose 40•50% even selling in never made a chip condition. If in good condition many older machines are just nicer. Although most are long out of production parts and accessories for many of the bigger names are still available, although often at great expense.

For someone with little experience new offers many benefits #1 being no guessing if you are getting a good machine or a used and abused one. If you have issues, a quality dealer has good service available. If you need parts / accessories you have a ready source for them. New machines generally come with a warranty. Particularly at the smaller / cheaper end new machines may have better features than older machines.

Something that doesn't get brought up much but may be worth thinking about, is multiple lathes are handy to have. When you really don't know what you want or even what you will do with it, then starting smaller / cheaper with an 8-10° lathe may be a good idea. It doesn't take up a ton of room as a second lathe, and even if you sell it you are out a lot less than buying bigger and finding you didn't buy the right machine the first time. It can also buy you time. Buying something like a Grizzly 9x20, or older US 9-10° lathe will set you back $1000-1500, not $4000-6000. This size machine typically has all the features of a large lathe, unlike most mini lathes. Used it to learn, maybe find it is all you need, or maybe find you really want a 14-40 and you can wait until that is in the budget but keep working and learning until you can get that bigger machine.

Much the same can be said for mills. Lots of people are happy with a 9° lathe and mill drill which new are still cheaper for both than you are looking at in just the cheaper of the PM lathes. Mill drills like the dreaded RF-31 make a very sturdy drill press that can mill when a larger mill enters your shop.

Your comment about buying a smaller lathe knowing that it will be replaced was something I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think about that. I guess the old adage "Buy once, cry once" doesn't really apply if your first purchase doesn't make you cry. I saw one episode on clickspring where he took the headstock off his Sherline lathe and put it on the cross slide of his larger lathe - this let him do some milling work directly on his lathe. Kind of a cool idea.

 

[matthewsx]

Your comment about buying a smaller lathe knowing that it will be replaced was something I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think about that. I guess the old adage "Buy once, cry once" doesn't really apply if your first purchase doesn't make you cry.

While that may be true, rigidity is a really big deal when it comes to machine tools. Since you're building the shop it makes sense to get the biggest machine that your budget allows. You don't know what projects you'll want to do in the future and while small parts can be made with a large machine the opposite isn't really true.

Knowing what I know now I wouldn't go for a lathe smaller than a 14 X 40. The 12 X 36 machines can do quite a bit, but it seems like going up that one extra step gives a lot more rigidity and power. Of course I don't have either, just a one-hundred year old 9" model but I can tell you there are definitely plenty of times when I wish for more power and rigidity even working on fairly small parts.

Cheers,

John

 

[Pcmaker]

I have a PM1127 lathe and it's more than enough for what I use it for, but what I really want is a PM1236 because changing gears for different threads is a HUGE pain.

You'll be more than happy with either machine. I would also buy it with the DRO installed.

As for the mill, try to save up for a knee mill. It's a different class altogether from benchtop mills. Also get DRO for it.

 

[Aaron_W]

Your comment about buying a smaller lathe knowing that it will be replaced was something I hadn't thought of. I'll have to think about that. I guess the old adage "Buy once, cry once" doesn't really apply if your first purchase doesn't make you cry. I saw one episode on clickspring where he took the headstock off his Sherline lathe and put it on the cross slide of his larger lathe - this let him do some milling work directly on his lathe. Kind of a cool idea.

The traditional logic here is buy the biggest lathe you can afford. There is some merit to that, and there are many here who started small and later went bigger using that to support the buy biggest theory.

If you were 100% sure a 12x36 is where you will be happy, great but you won't just cry once if you spend $6000 on the 12x36 and a year later are wishing you had held out for a bigger lathe. True it is unlikely you would regret the 12x36 if you find a smaller lathe would have been adequate.

It is true that a big lathe can make small parts, while a small lathe can not make big parts. A small lathe can be handier though and cheaper for everything. Again 2 lathes can be useful and a 9-10" lathe is quite capable and relatively compact making them a nice choice for that (eventually) second lathe so you aren't really violating the buy once cry once concept. Think of it as buying a commuter car and a truck.

You seem uncertain that the 12x36 will ultimately meet your needs. Nothing wrong with dipping a toe in the water instead of jumping in.

 

[mickri]

I don't go with the bigger is always better line of reasoning. My thought process is get the right tool for the job. Not too small and not too big. Years ago a friend's wife was complaining why did her husband need so many hammers. I asked her how many knives she had in her kitchen. That ended the complaining.

I was in your shoes 3 years ago when I got into this hobby. What to buy? One thing that I wanted to do was rebarrel some old mil surplus rifles I had. That required the ability to turn between centers at least 30." The other project was to modify the rear axle shafts on my 1966 MG Midget. That would require at least 24" between centers. Everything else was smaller. So I went with a 12x36 lathe. Seemed like the right size tool for the biggest projects I had in mind. I couldn't afford brand new machines and didn't have the experience to determine good from worn out machines. In looking for good used machines I focused on how the machine had been used. Anything from a machine shop that had been used day in and day out for years was just looking for trouble. I looked for estate sales where the kids were cleaning out dad's garage. I looked for over a year before finding exactly what I was looking for. A craftsman 12x36 lathe bought new by a hobby machinist. It came with every possible accessory in the craftsman catalog and more except for a taper attachment. Spent $1200.

Thinking about your list of projects. None seem to be that large that you would need 36" between centers let alone 40" or more. I would concentrate on the right tool for the intended projects. A 20" or 24" between centers lathe may be all that you need. Rigidity is important. The smaller lathes just don't have the rigidity that comes with 10" and larger lathes. Down the road as you gain more experience a bigger lathe may be needed for your projects. By then you will have some experience to guide you. In my area once you get out of the hobby size range the price for used lathes dramatically falls off. I often see 16" to 20" lathes sell for under $1000.

As for tooling. Buy it as you need it for the project at hand. Or in some cases make it. One of the fun aspects of this hobby is figuring out what you need for a particular project. Then deciding whether to buy or make. A big plus to making is the experience that you will gain. For example I made a norman style QCTP instead of buying. This gave me lots of hands on experience in both inside and outside turning a diameter to .001. From this I went on to make an ER32 collet chuck. That required turning an inside taper and accurate threading both imperial and metric. Next I tried a boring head. This entailed accurate dovetails on my mill/drill. My mill/drill was another estate sale find. As time goes on you will spend lots of money on tooling. But you don't need to spend it up front.

You will need to grind your HSS tool bits. From one newbie to another I would buy a belt sander before a bench grinder to grind HSS tool bits. No comparison between grinding HSS tool bits on a belt sander verses a bench grinder.

Lots to think about. You'll figure out what is best for you.

 

[mikey]

Doc, you've had some great input here and I'm not sure I'll add anything but I do have some opinions.

• Taiwanese quality is better than Chinese quality in most cases. I'm referring to the quality of the machining that goes into these lathes and it really does make a difference.
• The accuracy of the spindle is important because it affects everything you do on that machine. The 1340GT uses Nachi spindle bearings with guaranteed 0.0001" TIR. That's pretty good and suggests they're using at least P6 or perhaps P5 accuracy class bearings. I'm not sure what the other lathes have but it would be good to ask.
• Having a hardened and ground spindle and gears matters to me. My lathe is an Emco Super 11 CD that has a hardened and ground spindle and gears; it has zero run out and is pretty quiet, around 77-79 dB when running. That's pretty quiet for a gear head lathe and its because of the precision spindle and gear train. This type of gear train also lasts longer because of the precision fits; you won't wear out a lathe like this in your lifetime.
• Mass matters. This mass is in larger, heavier castings and that translates into better rigidity. While I think the advice of buying the biggest lathe you can afford is not always the best advice, when comparing two machines that are very close in size then opt for the bigger one if you can handle the cost. As @matthewsx said, rigidity matters. Rigidity is also related to bed width and the 1236T and 1340GT are wider and will be more rigid than the 1236, period.

Lathes in the 12-14" class are often close, spec-wise, so they all look the same. However, the 1236T is an outstanding lathe for the money; other than the hardened and ground spindle/gears it has all the good stuff. The 1340GT is even better, mainly because of the gear train, precision bearings and extra bed width and mass. It is large enough to handle farm-related implements, gun smithing and most anything a hobby guy is likely to do so you probably won't need to trade up later. Keep in mind that lathes cannot be upgraded for the most part so you have to buy one with the features you want from the start; think this through carefully.

Personally, I could be very happy with the 1236T, being a city guy and all. However, if I lived on a farm or planned to do gun work then I would go for the 1340GT. And I would opt for a 3-phase machine with VFD; ask Matt if that is an option.